Interview with Vernon and Eleanor Rudge
Interview by Andrew Des Rault
The Rudge Residence, Worcester MA
November 8, 2002

Andrew Des Rault (AD): The following is an interview of Mr. and Mrs. Rudge conducted by Andy Des Rault for the Quinsigamond Homefront project.

Mr. and Mrs. Rudge, in what years were you born?

Vernon "Bud" Rudge (BR): I was born in 1921.

Eleanor Rudge (ER): 1922.

AD: And where did you grow up in Quinsigamond village, what street?

BR: I grew up on [inaudible] street, which is right up by the funeral home. As a matter of fact, the funeral home owned the house that we lived in until my brothers were born, they had to move across- they were born across the street. I had triplet brothers.

AD: That's Linquist, right?

BR: Linquist Funeral Home.

ER: I lived in the village near Greenwood Park up until Kindergarten- 'cause I went one year to the school and then my folks sold our home and we moved up to North Worcester and then we moved back again when I was in high school.

AD: Ok, so..

ER: …They owned a business in the village, and I used to work there- I worked there all the time.

AD: Um, so you left briefly for just a little bit, but you came back because your parents had a business in Quinsig village- the Bakery [had been discussed prior to interview]?

ER: Yeah.

AD: And when did you get married and then when did you leave, or did you leave first and then get married?

BR: Ah, no, I went into the service and came back we'd just- we got married in 1942. In 1942. It was just before I was going to leave to go overseas. Just before I had to go overseas.

AD: And you left to move out of Quinsigamond, when?

BR: You mean after we come back?

AD: Yeah, after you came back.

BR: After I came back we lived in Quinsigamond- we lived down there. Where did we go from that [inaudible thinking aloud]?

ER: Well, we lived down in the village after we got married, during the, all during the war, and up until…

BR: She lived in the village…

ER: … about 1945.

BR: I was gone.

AD: Did anyone in your family, um, did you know-or did any of your friends for that matter go to fight in the war? I know that you went off in 1942, how did this affect you- your family and friends going off to fight?

BR: I was the one that went!

ER: And you friends- everybody was going- we had to go. President Roosevelt was a wonderful president. We felt we had to, we had to fight.

BR: She, She can tell you how they felt after I- when I left, how she felt, and I had an older brother who was in there too…

ER: Everybody joined up, most people joined up.

BR: At my age, my group- they were going in. And my older brother, he went in right after Pearl Harbor, but he was in the Navy and he was a college graduate- they sent him to college, so he was an officer in the Navy. But anyways, she knows what they did when we went, their feelings…

AD: Mrs. Rudge, why don't you talk about that- how you felt about your family, your friends, your loved ones going into the war.

ER: I don't think we were prepared for the horror that was going on. We didn't get the news like you get today. For that matter, when he was going over, they had Guadalcanal and New Guinea and all these- well, the little islands, we didn't know where they were. We weren't- we didn't learn this in school. I would have to get out- get out maps, you know, 'cause we really didn't think it was that bad until, until after Guadalcanal.

BR: I was on Guadalcanal. But the other thing I think they- they never knew where I was, you never knew where I was because the papers would say, "the Marines have landed here, the Marines have landed here," and, they didn't know who it was…

ER: We didn't know what he was in, you know. We didn't realize how bad it was until people in the village, their sons and daughters [silence] when they heard they'd been killed, or died. Then we all felt bad together. The mailman would- we had a wonderful mailman. Did anyone talk to you about a mailman?

AD: No.

ER: We had a won- what was his name?

BR: Tom Garret.

ER: Huh?

BR: Tom Garret.

ER: Yeah, his last name was Garret. He knew every- he lived in the village- he knew everybody in the village. He knew every letter that came. He knew the good letters and he knew the bad letters, and many of times, he'd go out of his way to deliver a letter that, that the parents hadn't heard from there son for a long time. And he would go, he would go to that house first if you got a letter from him. He was wonderful. And, Bud would mail me letters, and he had a fellow with him who drew caricatures, you know, caricatures…

AD: Yeah, I think I saw some of those.

ER: Yeah, he did that. And I remember I got one of them, I never got that letter. He would bring that all around his route and show it to everybody.

BR: He had me, he had me, chasing with a sword- I had a sword- that picture of me chasing a Jap with a sword and in-between was [inaudible]. He was real [proud] with how he painted it too, I don't know…

ER: The fellow who did it…

BR: I don't know where that envelope is, but someplace we have it, because we kept it, and he sure did [laughs]…

ER: But the mailman played a big role- when any- he was wonderful.

AD: I just want to talk a little bit more about work during the war, since you worked in the Bakery, what was it like just working in Quinsig village during the war?

ER: Well, it was wonderful because we knew everybody, and we, we really worked hard because our good bakers were drafted. And so, we had one baker I think, and mother and me, and, ah, it was rough. And you know, like American Steel and Wire were making, what were they making, war time things?

BR: Oh yeah, oh yeah, they were making…

ER: They couldn't get certain foods because other bakeries had- well they didn't, they lost their bakers too. So I don't know how many- 50 dozen donuts a day mother made. She would make all of these donuts all by hand, she would get up early in the morning and make her donuts for American Steel and Wire, and they would come and pick them all up.

BR: Wasn't that for the manager- that house down in the corner- the house a the end of Butler Street? Was that where you put 'em? Is that where they went, or did they go to the wire mill?

ER: I don't remember where. I think they went there then they would distribute them in the mill- well, they had keep their workers happy, because they were losing them too. So, working down there,we all knew everybody, we knew who got hurt- where, where, they would come into the bakery and talk about it like they'd go into the-a coffee shop like McDonalds [sic] and everyone would- we had a diner, did anyone talk to you about the diner?

AD: No, not at all.

ER: There was a Diner down there…

BR: Tac's diner.

ER: What was it?

BR: Tac. Tac's diner. T-a-c apostrophe "s". Tac's diner.

ER: They would go in there and they would talk about it, just like you see on television, like what's his name…

BR: Oh, Seinfeld you mean?

ER: Seinfeld. They'd go to the little coffee shop and they- well, that's the way they'd do that.

BR: But, I ah, I think the donuts you are referring to were all handmade donuts and that's what the specialty was. The other bakeries had the donuts that were machine made, but yours were handmade and that's what they were really looking for.

ER: And decorating. There was always a party for some boy going away. Always a party. And we would make these big sheet cakes and decorate them for the parties. So we knew who was going, and who came back.

BR: Tell him what you'd paint on it with the frosting. Tell him what you'd put on the cakes.

ER: What do you mean, like what?

BR: You know, you'd put a flag on it, if it was the Navy you'd have a ship on it…

ER: Oh yeah,

AD: Oh that's great. Let me ask you Mrs. Rudge, when a lot of the men went off to fight in the war, a lot of women took up jobs, right, they…

ER: Oh, they sure did. They worked in the wire mill, which women never did and they all went to work. It really boosted their income, to go to work, too, so after the war, they didn't want to give up their jobs. The men came home, but they didn't want to give up their jobs because they were getting their own money. Before they didn't work, you know?

AD: They worked a lot of hour too, right?

ER: Gh, long hours. Oh long. When I think of the bakery, there were long hours there. And it was difficult, because we couldn't have a truck- we couldn't get gasoline for it, we couldn't "coupon" for it. And, you'd run out and couldn't deliver things like you'd wanted to. But everybody was wonderful. We had a food market right next door. Have you interviewed anybody from there?

BR: Sure, Anderson and Sundquist.

AD: I've heard a lot about it, but I haven't interviewed anyone from it.

ER: OK

AD: I think it's a liquor store now actually, or something like that.

ER: Well, they were wonderful. Then we'd get sugar- they'd ration everything out. They'd make sure that certain people that needed certain things got it. They were wonderful.

AD: This is Anderson and Sundquist?

ER: Yeah.

AD: Right.

ER: I think the gas rationing was tough because people couldn't go anywhere and they were…

AD: Well, they had food rationing too, right? They rationed basically everything.

ER: everything.

AD: And did you find that particularly tough, or you just kinda dealt with it and moved on?

ER: Well, we really weren't too hard on it, because the bakery-they were making stuff for American Steel and Wire, which they were making things for the war effort, and Norton Company. So we got extra rations for our bakery and that turned out real good. But we all stayed in the village and we didn't go anywhere because we didn't have any- like you didn't go to Boston to a ballgame. I think we took the train in [just] one time.

BR: Did anyone mention the assembly hall at the American Steel and Wire?

AD: No, I don't think so.

BR: That was quite a place too. That's where they had the dances and stuff during the war…

ER: They'd have someone come and play the organ or play the piano, and they'd come on Saturday nights because the people couldn't go anywhere and they couldn't drive- even the public transportation- they were cut down too on rationing, you know, and, it was kinda, it was kinda nice though when I think back. We all stayed together. We knew everybody.

AD: I've got some questions about the war itself, either of you can answer this: How did you feel when Pearl Harbor was attacked. What was the first thing that came to your mind, or…

BR: Well, that was a very strange thing. We were dating, and were at a movie that night that that happened- Gone with the Wind, Gone with the Wind. We come out, and then it was on the street that Pearl harbor was bombed. That was- it stopped everything. Everybody wanted to go.

ER: Everybody was ready…

BR: Ready. Ready to go.

ER: And everybody was…

BR: It was turmoil downtown.

ER: Yeah, turmoil.

AD: In Worcester?

BR: Yep.

AD: In Quinsigamond Too?

BR: Yeah, it was all over. We happened to be at the movies downtown at that time. The village was the same way.

ER: The young people, they all signed up to go, they had to sign up 'cause they got a draft number.

BR: Oh yeah, oh yeah. Everybody had to go and sign up.

ER: At first, so many boys signed up that they didn't have to draw on the draft.

AD: Yeah.

ER: You know, they didn't draw on the draft until [pauses and discusses silently with husband] after you went.

AD: Once you, once you heard that we had entered the war against Japan and Germany, what did you think of the enemies? What did you think of the Japanese what did you think of Germans?

BR: If ever told you how many Jap's I'd killed, you wouldn't believe it. I have pictures right in this room right know in this house- of guys I would shoot. I'd take their wallets out of the clothing- we were in the jungle- I'd take their money, I've got money- Japanese money- oh yeah.

ER: But you did that because they were killing our boys- some of your friends were wiped out…

BR: Oh, I'd seen a lot of torture, you'd better believe it. A lot of torture

ER: And that's why they retaliated that way.

BR: I have no [regrets] to this very day [long silence]. I had a friend come up here to visit me and he had a Japanese car- I wouldn't let him park in my driveway. But that- I do. I have pictures of those that I've shot. And what it was was, like you said- torture, using [dying soldiers] for bayonet practice. We'd seen it…

AD: Was that Guadalcanal?

BR: yeah, that was Guadalcanal, all around…

AD: Were you at Iwo Jima or Okinowa?

BR: I wouldn't know every- I went to, I was at Guam. I went to Guam…

ER: Guadalcanal was his first…

BR: First one, then I went to Bougainville…

ER: Bougainville.

BR: Bougainville was one of the worst, infested islands in the Pacific. They had headhunters there.

ER: And then from there, he went to Guam, and then his ship often layed, layed away from islands that other marines had invaded in case they needed a back-up- they would go on. He went through the whole thing with Guam, so in the end he was disabled- he was shot.

BR: I was aboard a ship that got sunk.

AD: Wow.

BR: On the way to Bougainville. The USS McCain.

AD: The Purple Heart- I'm sure you got the Purple Heart.

BR: Yeah, I should have the Purple Heart. I never went after it.

ER: He should have the Purple Heart… but all of his officers were killed. And they have to put your name in for it. You have to have a written-although, he should have it because he was in the hospital- I know there are records of it.

AD: Yeah, my father got a Purple Heart in Vietnam, so…

BR: Was he in the Marine Corps?

AD: He fought with the 1st Marine Division in Da Nang. He has some stories to tell to.

BR: He was in the 1st Division?

AD: Yeah, yeah…

ER: Your father?

AD: He was a corpsman, he was a Navy…

BR: Oh corpsman, they were great, we loved the corpsmen, we loved the corpsmen…

ER: That's your father?

AD: Yeah, my father.

ER: Oh golly, you know? You look like a Marine, or grew up in a Marine house.

AD: Yeah, I think he's changed a bit [laughs].

BR: Yeah, corpsmen used to get, "Corpsman over here, corpsman over here."

ER: Saved many lives.

AD: What did you think about the Germans? I know you didn't fight them directly, but…

BR: I don't know, I really had nothing to do with the Germans [some inaudible words due to speaker's distance from recorder]. But I will say this, that of the two wars- one in Europe, one in the Pacific- I'd prefer the Pacific because of the weather. Those guys over in Germany had it tough. They had frozen fingers, frozen toes- that is tough, whereas where we were, it was always warm, you could always handle your rifle, it was always no problem handling the rifle at all. We had a lot of rain, but that's how we cleaned- that's how we got washed up: Rain., and the rivers whenever we could get to them. But I have no [feelings towards] the Germans.

AD: So I guess it is pretty clear what your sense of why we were fighting for the war was- you felt that the Japanese or even the Germans for that matter were just evil, pretty much, right and they had to be…

BR: If you saw what some of those Japanese did- it was torture. They tortured. And we were always told, "if you're gonna go down, take one with you." Don't go down, just take them down.

AD: Yeah. So besides sending the boys off to the war effort, and working in factories- well, I guess you could include that too- what kind of sacrifices did the people of Quinsigamond have to make during the war? Anything that we haven't mentioned that would affect everyday life?

BR: Well, I think that what you said about the food problem, and you know, there all the same, and the rationing and all that stuff- they did a lot of walking!

ER: Oh everybody walked and everybody- he walked, he walked to high school. How far did you walk to high school? That wasn't during the war, but…

BR: No, but that was before the war [thinks aloud]. Greenwood street…

ER: Well, Estimate it.

BR: Huh?

ER: Estimate it.

BR: [Continues to think aloud] Over by Holy Cross College, and then through the… to South High School. Oh it had to be five miles, it had to be more than that, probably six or seven.

AD: [Laughs]

BR: Every day. Back and forth.

ER: Carrying lunch.

BR: Yeah, oh yeah, that was high school. But for Junior High School we had to go all the way up to Providence Street, and that was a good three miles…

ER: Yeah, everybody walked. Everywhere you went to walk, and to me, the only joy that they had was ice skating.

BR: Old Jefford's pond. Did anyone mention Jefford's Pond to you?

AD: No, but what someone did mention was the firehouse that used to freeze over the [street]…

BR: Oh yeah, the 6th. My father worked there. That was his last station before- he was a firefighter- and that was his last station before he retired. Oh yeah.

ER: yeah, so we had- they had ballgames up at the park and everybody in the village- they would go up to watch the ballgames, I mean, there was no place to go and they would go up to watch that. They stayed in the village and entertained themselves in the village.

BR: Everything was there. They had the gas station there- did they [my previous interviewees] tell you about the gas station they had down there?

AD: Yeah, I heard about it.

BR: Yeah, that was down in the middle of the village. Everybody went to that gas station.

ER: Everybody went to church on Sundays- the churches were packed. And there were a lot of churches down there, did they tell you about the churches?

AD: Yeah, why don't you tell me a little bit- yeah, I've heard a lot about them, but let's hear your perspective on…

ER: Well, 'course I went to the little Baptist church- the one that got moved…

AD: Right, it was just moved a couple of weeks ago.

ER: Yes, we got married in that church too-just the little tiny thing. But there were [counts aloud] one, two, three, four five churches. They were all Protestant churches. The Catholic church came in later and everybody went to church and they would have suppers and every, you know, to keep the people happy- I think during the war. I thought the church played a big role, don't you Bud?

BR: Sure. They had to. They had to. Just prior to the war, they had what they called the Swedish Basketball league down there. I played with the Lutheran church.

ER: Yeah, they had basketball teams- Every church had a basketball team- even the little church I went to. They had enough boys, they had little boys, but there were big boys…

BR: Some of the ones that you interviewed were also members of the basketball league…

AD: Yeah, Mr. Forsberg.

BR: Oh Gubby. Gubby was a good athlete.

ER: Oh Gubby. Well, Gubby was younger than him…

BR: He was nine years younger- he was my brothers' age.

ER: By wasn't in World War II.

AD: He was eleven or twelve when the war broke out.

BR: That's true because I'm nine years older than my brothers and they were about that age because I went, I was 20 and my brothers were friends with Gubby. They were-They're like a family, Gubby was just like one of our family. They still are.

ER: He's something else.

AD: He's a great man.

BR: I will say one thing, all of the Swedes [in Quinsigamond] were nice people. You know, they were…

ER: Very rarely did anyone go away to college. High school-it was great when you graduated from high school, then you all went out to work. There was no college.

AD: Yeah, that didn't change until after the war, with the GI Bill and all…

ER: yeah, then it changed. And that's when your brother took advantage of…

BR: No, he was a college graduate before… He went before the war- he was a graduate before the war, but when he came back he went after a masters and he taught up in New Hampshire [cites town, but is inaudible on tape].

ER: My mother had a bakery truck and he drove it when he came home or he drove it just before he went in the war, and she had an awful time because the tires were terrible then- they're not like the tires are today. And it was awful- I think she had to buy tires through the black market. She did didn't she?

BR: Didn't she buy some of her flour from…

ER: Yes, in order to keep going, you know, she would- I don't know how quick… My mother was Italian and…

BR: She had a lot of Italian connections [laughs].

ER: Yeah, she- Mafia connections- we used to tell her that. But she always managed to get a tire that had been maybe patched ten times but she would get a tire for that truck. She kept that truck running, didn't she?

BR: I guess so.

ER: And I think everybody did a lot of black market stuff.

AD: Besides like the basketball teams, that the churches helped front and pay for and everything, what else did the churches sponsor? What other kinds of groups that inspired cohesion within the community and…

BR: Well, a lot of the merchants wanted a baseball team- I know I had [inaudible] bakery- I'm not sure… Did your mom's bakery…

ER: Yeah, they sponsored a baseball team and basketball team. But for the girls, I don't remember what they did for the girls.

BR: I think that…

ER: Maybe they had girl scouting or stuff like that. But…

BR: They were a very well-knit group the Swedes were…

ER: What I remember is seeing, that, we, we were always going to church 'cause something was going on, whether it was dancing, or music, or choir, we just- everybody seemed to do that 'cause there was no place to go, nothing to do.

AD: During wartime, was Quinsigamond pretty much all Swedish, or was there any kind of non-Swedish population there?

BR: Well, there was some. It was probably 90 percent.

ER: Polish way down…

BR: We went down into Greenwood street [sic], down in that end there were the Swedes then there were the Polish and Lithuanian…

ER: There was a hall, what was the name of the hall? IGA hall? The hall on the corner of Halmstead street. There was a Swedish hall…

BR: Yes there was.

ER: As long as any immigrant came over from Sweden…

BR: You see, the reason why there were so many Swedes, because when they come from Sweden, they came to a Swedish place naturally. They had family.

ER: Well, they couldn't speak English, so they would all- a lot of them would come with the name of this hall. The women who ran it…

BR: But you know El, they learned English.

ER: Oh they did.

BR: They sure did.

ER: They did.

BR: And they'd probably speak Swedish in the house, but when they got out in the street it was all English. The English Immersion…

ER: They all tried… She would coach them and get them jobs, that woman. She would find them a room down here on the end of Lincoln- at Lincoln square was a big red brick [building] called Mrs. Shern's, and she had all immigrant, mostly men, who'd come over- they didn't know nothing and she would feed them, and find them jobs.

BR: Those were the Swedes that were on Bellmore Hill because there were a lot of Swedes on Bellmore Hill. That's who she took care of, not the village…

ER: Well there was Bellmore hill and Quinsigamond village and Greendale.

BR: See, those four areas were Swedish, did you know that?

AD: No.

ER: Where's the fourth one?

BR: Greendale. Greendale, Bellmore Hill, Quinsig and ah, no, it's three. Three. Bellmore Hill…

ER: 'Cause when the Irish came, they were all up on Vernon Hill. Weren't they there?

BR: Yeah, Irish and German…

ER: The Irish were up here off of Burncoat. And the Italians…

AD: Were off of Shrewsbury…

BR: The English were in South Worcester, and Shrewsbury street had the Italians. But the village was unique: they were Swedes.

AD: You're both second generation, right- um, you were born here but your parents were immigrants?

BR: Both my parents were born here.

ER: [Simultaneously] Both of his parents were born here.

AD: Oh OK

ER: I am second generation.

AD: How did people from Quinsigamond relate to those in the other parts of Worcester, like the Italian section for instance, or the English section?

BR: I think everybody stayed in their own sections. But there was never any fighting- there was never any gangs or anything like that. I could tell you: You could walk anyplace in the city of Worcester, whether it was Shrewsbury Street, Quinsigamond, Vernon Hill at midnight and never have to worry about anything going wrong. Never.

ER: You could take the bus downtown and come back…

BR: Yep, yep, you could, they were- every one of them were, they were…

ER: His mother would used to tell me that when she was a young girl - I think they lived up on Vernon Hill…

BR: Yes they did.

ER: Any she told me they were afraid of Italians. At that time, in the 20s, what was it, Sacco-Vanzetti…

AD: Sacco- Vanzetti trial, yeah…

ER: They were petrified of the Italians.

BR: I bet that even during the war you could walk down Shrewsbury Street.

ER: Oh definitely.

BR: Or anytime, I know I never knew anyone who ever had a problem. Never knew of a problem in the city…

ER: That's why it's hard for our generation to see these gangs because we didn't have anything like that. We could raise our boys and our girls and didn't worry about them going into a gang. There seems to be a lot going on. Well they had to walk everywhere. They didn't have a car to jump in and go, you know.

BR: They had a pond down there, Jefford's pond, where everyone would go down to ice skate.

ER: Yeah, on the weekend they would go light fires to warm up, roast marshmallows and everyone would skate around there.

BR: Did you- did anyone talk to you about Greenwood park and the caretaker, Karl Roger and he could not pronounce the letter r and it was- there'd be ball games up there and Karl would say, "get behind the wopes, get behind the wopes." This guy, he did a good job regardless of what anyone says. This Jefford's pond was further down out of Quinsig Village down in the back, and he'd come down and clean them ponds off so the kids could skate- so I just wanted to know if anyone mentioned anything about Karl Roger.

AD: Well, I'll take note. Definitely. Now, Mrs. Rudge, you were already out of school when the war began, right?

ER: Yes, I had just graduated from high school…

AD: [Checking off question] Well I guess that question's not pertinent. OK, um, I know you've mentioned FDR before. What did you think of FDR, his policies, the government? Were the politics partisan at all? Were they [the residents of Quinsig] Republicans or Democrats…

ER: Well, to me, the first time that we got involved in politics was, was World War II. I think, I remember, although I remember I was a Republican because my parents were, and I remember we voted in school, you know, they'd have the kids with all the…

AD: Yeah, the mock polls…

ER: I remember voting for Hoover. And everyone said, "what are you voting for him for?" 'Cause he was a, he was a Republican and, that's what I heard at home. I didn't know nothing about him. They all voted for Democrats.

BR: There was one other thing: Roosevelt was the President. Roosevelt was the only President for three terms. And the saying overseas where I was in the Pacific was, "you don't want to change horses in the middle of the stream." And he ran, and I think he was one of the greatest. But the guy who put the finishing touches on the whole thing was Truman 'cause he was the one who said, "bomb 'em. Let the bombs roll."

ER: Yeah, he had to take over.

BR: That's right, because Roosevelt had died. He, Roosevelt and- he was great. The other thing you asked- the difference between the Republicans and the Democrats- I don't think that feeling was that way then. It wasn't the party. It was a country. They looked at somethings differently. Today its, you know, they have to have this, they have to have that, he's going to be of your party, he's gonna be of his party- like this was the worst campaign I'd ever heard of, it was really… But anyway…

ER: You mean the one race now…

BR: Yeah, but during the war, things were different. I think that everybody had one thing, whether Republican or Democrat it didn't matter, you worked for the good of the country.

AD: Yeah, Mr. Hult and Mr. Forsberg had told me that Quinsigamond was mostly Republican at the time.

BR: Oh yes, oh sure.

ER: Oh yeah, the Swedes were all Republicans.

AD: Would you remember- this is probably hard for anyone to remember- who was in control of Worcester at that time- the Mayor, whether he was a Republican or Democrat, or who he was for that matter?

ER: Yeah, the one whose son we used to…

BR: Sternloff. Axel Sternloff.

ER: yeah, but who was the… I don't remember too many mayors, do you? Axel Sternloff, he just represented…

BR: He was from Ward 6, he was just a councilman. He was not a, you know. Gee, it's hard to remember who was in office at that time. Really, you know?

AD: Probably didn't matter that much.

BR: Well, I think it was a prestige position…

ER: Of course all we had was radios and a lot of homes didn't have radios, so we didn't know too much going on, you know. Nowadays, you put on your television, you know these prople whether you want to know them or not.

AD: 'Tis true. 'Tis true. Let's move away from politics and talk about culture and entertainment in Quinsigamond. This probably is especially pertinent to you Mrs. Rudge: What did you do for entertainment during the war? Did you go out to movies for instance…

ER: Yeah. We did a lot of movies. I remember that.

AD: How were the movies. How did they portray the war? Were they very patriotic?

ER: Definitely. They were wonderful. We really needed it. The good guys always came home and we needed that, we needed to- the hope- that our boys would come home. But we always went to the movies, we'd meet in town and go, then we'd go to the doughnut show after. We took the public transportation. No one drove.

BR: The were trolley cars at that stage. Trolley cars, did they tell you that?

AD: I've seen trolley cars, but you know what, I've never seen them being used for the sole purpose of mass transportation. [laughs]. I think it's been a long time.

BR: Sure, sure. They used to have a switching place where they'd switch the- if they were going to go down Greenwood Street, well right there in front of the terminal is right where- on Tappan street- there was a switch where the, the one [went] down and off to the right, the other went around to the left, and then they'd go on and of course…

ER: It was wonderful. How much was it, a nickel a ride?

BR: A dime.

ER: A dime.

BR: And, we used to hop the trolleys. You know, we'd jump in the back and go around and ride on them.. When you wanted to stop, you'd pull the…

ER: Especially in the summertime when they were wide open.

AD: Were there any Masons' Lodges or any other social [or fraternal] organizations that were prevalent in Quinsig that you might have had involvement in?

ER: There was a group at that hall…

BR: Yeah, that's right. They were- what were they? Gubby must have mentioned that, he would have been in that.

AD: Yeah, the Boys' club on Ionic Drive…

BR: Oh the boys' clubs on Ionic Ave. No there were no boys' clubs down there. Not down in the village. The village had none of that, and that one place that you're referring to [to wife], Gubby must have mentioned that because that was a real Swedish place…

ER: He lived right in back of that hall.

AD: Speaking of Sweden, I think [Mr. Forsberg] went back 30 times?

BR: Oh well, he was a business man. He was…

AD: Well, he still is.

BR: Well, of course he is. Well, his daughter's got a…

ER: Well, he's got a- Gubby's the wholesaler, she's has her little store.

AD: Yeah, it's a nice place over there.

ER: Have you been…

AD: Yeah, I was in his shop a couple of days ago.

ER: Oh you were?

AD: Yeah, he showed me his warehouse - his warehouse in the back, all sorts of Swedish imports. It's nice. Very Proud.

ER: He's got his grandson in there now, did you meet the grandson? A short boy- tall, not short- tall, but heavy.

AD: I think I did.

ER: very fleshy. He looks like about 15 or 16.

AD: Right, yeah I saw him, I saw him. I was assaulted by about 20 dogs that came out.

ER: [in unison with husband] oh yeah. They have a lot of dogs.

BR: did he ever mention triplets- Gubby? Because they were just like I said, like a family.

ER: They all- he lived down there and he had these three triplet brothers- they all married Swedish girls.

BR: That, that station that they have down at the corner of Greenwood street where Gubby is down there, that land was owned by my brothers. The gas station. They're not working it now, but they owned it.

AD: Texaco I think.

BR: Texaco, yeah they used to… Gubby didn't happen to mention "Lutheran hour" did he?

AD: Who?

BR: The Lutheran hour? he didn't

AD: No, No.

ER: Well that was…

BR: That was really after the war. It was something that they called the "Lutheran hour-" they'd all go out and drink.

AD: [Laughs] Lutheran hour. Yeah, he made a point of saying that there was not one bar [before or during] the war in all of Quinsigamond.

BR: No, no. No bar on Millbury street.

ER: If you, you wanted a little hooch, you could go to the drugstore, and the guy would go in the back- I remember that- and he would have a couple of bottles back there, didn't he?

BR: I don't know.

ER: Oh I re- I remember that, you'd see someone coming down Millbury Street waddling along with this scrunched up bag with a bottle in it and he's holding it. Oh, I even remember that so well, and they got it from that drugstore.

BR: As anyone would tell you, there were no bars. They were all up on Millbury street, there were quite a few on Millbury street-right where the wire mill was- and all the way up Millbury street there was a whole bunch of them.

AD: Up in the Vernon Hill area?

BR: The village was dry.

ER: That was a long walk, 'cause everyone had to walk…

BR: The village was dry.

AD: Here's a question. This one's been pretty difficult for everyone to answer: The fact that Quinsigamond was very Swedish in its heritage, did that have- did Sweden's neutral position in World War II have any influence on your though about the war, or did no one even think about it. Because they were neutral for like the first two-three years of the war?

ER: They were neutral. And I think, they, I think for me I just remember that the other nationalities- like the Italians, which my mother was- she was from an Italian family- they didn't like the idea that Sweden was neutral.

AD: But then again, the Italians were on the Axis so…

ER: They did everything wrong, you know? They really did and my mother…

BR: I think, I'm talking about the Swedes, I think they only had one thing in mind: They weren't worried about their homeland, they were frightened for the United States, just like every other American-born boy. I think that was just it. I never saw anything, or did any of the Swedes every have anything to say bad about anything. I mean it when I say that. They…

ER: They didn't talk about their own country, it was the other ones- the Italians, and the Polish and, they were the ones. Did any one tell you about Betty's Spa, down?

AD: Betty's Bar?

BR: Spa.

AD: Spa? No.

ER: She was, she had a, during the war now, she had German, what do you call them? German Christmas parties. They met in her little store.

BR: That night, on Pearl Harbor, I left you off and I was going I was home, they were there then- the FBI or someone was there then because she had a Nazi flag in there…

ER: She had a Nazi flag in there…

BR: It was probably twice as big as what we're sitting in right here- going back that way [gesturing with hands]. You know, it was only a Spa. It's still there.

ER: That was a big thing because they came and took those people right out of there and send them- put them in camps.

BR: They were real Nazis, yeah.

AD: That was probably a pretty bad decision to have a Nazi flag flying.

ER: yeah.

BR: But that was before [Pearl Harbor]…

ER: 1938, 39, 40. Leading up to it she had, she had Nazi stuff going on in the back there. And they would come in late at night…

BR: I stopped to get something in the store, because it was a little store- they carried everything in there and they were there [inaudible].

ER: You couldn't get in, but before that, the year before that, two years before that.

BR: Yeah.

ER: It was kind of a shady place.

AD: I just want to check where I am on this tape.

---End Tape 1---

ER: … [Idle Discussion continuing on to second side of tape] He would come and fly in over the village low, real low. We all knew it was Dooney Hull and everybody ran up to the bakery, we would run up- everyone would wave a cloth or something all down Greenwood Street. He would fly low- he did that until he went overseas.

BR: He played first base for Holy Cross.

AD: Actually, I think Mr. Forsberg mentioned him. More similarities, that's good. Actually, I haven't asked this question of the other two fellows that I've interviewed, but this seems like an appropriate question. What did you think about the internment of Japanese Americans on the West Coast- you know that they were put in concentration camps just like the Germans were that you mentioned here at Betty's Spa, and just struck me as quite a good question to ask. What did you think about that?

ER: Well, I think that was a terrible thing the United States did. My grandparents were- the came, they were immigrants, could barely speak English- my grandfather could not read or write and they lived in Venice California. They lived in fear of being picked up like the Japanese people. She had a little suitcase packed right by her front door, 'cause she knew- my grandmother- that they were going to come by with the truck, and she would have, she would have her suit case ready and she could- they would make them ride in this truck. Now I don't know where she got this idea from, but I went out there during World War II, you know, I went out 'cause I know he [her husband] was going overseas and I went out to say goodbye to him. But I thought he was coming right back and once they got him, he would end the war. He was gonna make it better, you know, we weren't keyed up-we- like the young people today, they know everything that's going on. They know all the guns and- we didn't even know-all we though was a gun was like a BB gun, you know? And so I stayed with them for three months and worked in the aircraft- Douglass Aircraft- making airplanes and I worked there and she just lived in fear of that, and she always had a bottle of water because she'd heard that they didn't give them any water- when they took the Japanese they brought them on the truck and gathered them all up, brought them out into the desert, they had a place, where they -a camp. She thought for sure she was going. It was awful, I remember that…

BR: You say all that, but you know, they don't tell you what they did to our prisoners when they had them over there, like the Bataan March…

ER: No, no no…

BR: I say wipe them out. I mean it, I'll tell you, I mean it…

ER: At that time…

BR:… I did, I did. When they did what they did with the Americans in the Philippines and marched them in that Bataan March, they gave them nothing, at least these people were being fed up here. And I wouldn't trust them. I wouldn't trust a Jap inside my garage.

ER: Well, that's after you'd dealt with them. You didn't know that before the war…

BR: Well, what they did, that was bad, and that's why I say, they at least were fed and put into a concentration camp to stop them from being- remember, the Japanese were off the Pacific coast you know. They had submarines out there, and what would stop them from invading the coast with our soldiers fighting all off in the other places. That was my feeling.

ER: That was your fault?

BR: No, I said that was my feeling about them. And you know, the other thing I didn't like about that was they wanted to get paid for being in there too- they didn't pay us. The Japanese didn't pay the prisoners…

ER: the Americans for what they did.

BR: … that [still] bothers me…

AD: Yeah, yeah. But it still is [a volatile subject] today because, you know, it's the legacy that lives on and everything.

BR: When you go through this, you never forget it. Every single day it was only yesterday that it happened. And I'm just one guy out of the millions that do the same thing every single day- that if anything comes up- as soon as anything comes up, it stands on end in there…

AD: Right.

BR: The hate comes out.

AD: Just, I guess, some concluding questions about the war: How did you find out the war had ended? Or, and actually, what did you feel when the war had ended? Were you exuberant, were you really happy? For instance, you knew you were going to be coming back…

BR: I was back.

AD: Oh, you were back?

BR: I was back. I was in the hospital out in the West Coast. Everybody was happy…

ER: Oh, down in the village we they had a big bonfire in the middle of the street where it forked off- where the Baptist Church [was] right in the square. Everybody dragged what they had of old lumber and trees and wood, and we had a great big bonfire. It was the happiest day of all. And everybody came down- thousands of people- from the hill there in the village, they all came out of the hill. They came from everywhere: out of the woods and everything. I'll never forget that. That was in July?

AD: Was it VJ day or was it?

ER: VJ.

AD: Yeah. Wow.

ER: Very exciting. We were gonna live again [laughs]

AD: So how did Quinsigamond change right after the war? What happened to it? I mean, did a lot of people stay? Did a lot of people leave in the 50s?

ER: No, I think a lot of building went on- people were buying land and building…

BR: I think life just went on. Life started all over. We just went on and continued on…

ER: We all wanted it the way it was before they went away.

BR: People had stores, and they had, they worked in the wire mill and it was a peaceful place.

ER: It was a big adjustment because those mills didn't get any war contracts anymore…

AD: Yeah. Kind of bittersweet…

ER: Yeah, it just kind of dropped into a depression a that time…

BR: I don't know. I think they were just happy, and just, you know, just having that all off their shoulders and all that. I think that was the feeling all over because…

ER: But even though they didn't get war contracts, ah, then, they started building automobiles, you know, they started building things they hadn't built…

BR: That was of course, that was the wire mill that you're talking about…

ER. … and they had refrigerators.

BR: Yeah, that was the wire mill, because there was no other industry in the village except for Johnson Steel and Wire- down on [inaudible]. So the only, the only industry had was that- nothing else, besides the bakery and a few things like that. I think life just picked up again and started right where it left off. I think that's what they did: They all just, ah, happy that they lived in Worcester- they greeted all the guys coming home, of course, and all of that stuff, but after that…

ER: I think that a lot of the boys went back to school…

BR: Yeah, and to where they had worked. I worked for the power company from there.

ER: They held your job over…

BR: They held me a job. Every time there was a promotion, that I would have been in, I got it.

AD: The power company?

BR: Sure. Yeah, I put 42 years in there, including the years I was in the war. Because I reached seniority and everything. Everything was- that's why I say t you and I, things just picked up, and we just went out about our own lives, and we did. I think, I really think the village was a wonderful place to live.

AD: Just for the record, what was the name of that power company you worked for?

BR: New England Power. New England Power.

AD: New England Power.

BR: Yeah, that's the big one- It was like the, it was like the- they had the, you know, the…

ER: Whole thing.

BR: Everything went into New England Power. All of these power companies, Mass electric, and all that, I mean…

AD: Oh, it was a conglomerate then.

BR: Well, It was all one big company with different names on 'em. That's all. We all worked together.

AD: Finally, if you think that there's anything that you think I left out, or didn't ask about, or anything that you want to share, just about the war in general…

ER: Spit it out now or forever hold your peace!

AD: Yeah, basically [laughs].

BR: I think that the life in the village was beautiful…

ER: I think a lot of building went on- there was homes, apartments…

BR: Oh yes, that started yes you're right. Because of people like us that had been married before the war, or during the war, they started looking for homes, there had to be homes and they were good homes.

ER: Veterans were coming back, and everyone was getting married because that's what they wanted to do, you know, there were sort of- years were taken away from them. So they built here, in [inaudible] Valley, housing for the veterans.

BR: See what it is now, it's a different thing now. All the veterans were there, and right, as soon as they get jobs, hey moved out to the condos…

ER: They didn't have housing for the veterans [in Quinsig].

BR: No. but that was [inaudible] Valley, that's where they went.

AD: So a lot of folks from Quinsigamond moved out for the housing?

BR: Well, you see things happened that way…

ER: We moved out…

BR: The thing was that marrying, when the stated getting married- their kids got married, they wouldn't only marry from the village- like my brothers did: they all picked girls from the village. But a lot of them, you know, went elsewhere, you know, and started the expansion of the city really. The Suburban towns started to increase…

ER: Yeah, like Millbury. Millbury was nothing.

BR: Millbury, Sutton, Auburn, all of them- even up here. Even up here.

Period of silence

AD: OK, I guess that concludes. Thank you very much for your time.