Kevin Higgins (KH): Testing. Testing. Testing.

KH: OK, this is our interview with Wray Schelin at Edward Buick in Worcester. Wray, what is the first thing you think of when you think of WWII?

Wray Schelin (WS): I think of a lot of things. Why were such things put together with such a thing with the Japanese and the Allies… everybody perished. For what? We're all friends now. It's all past tense, you know. All that time, all that money, lives were lost… for what? Just a page in history?

KH: I know what you mean. What is your strongest memory of the war-what jumps out at you when you think of it?

WS: Well I was on the AP141 attack transport carrying people back from France to San Diego to Australia, from Australia to New Zealand, from New Zealand to Sumatra, Sumatra up the Holy River up to Calcutta, down to Sri Lanka-it's called the Salon. Over to aid in Arabia…

KH: So you saw the world?

WS: …up to Suez city, across the Mediterranean and back to New York, and back from New York over to France all the time. Almost transported over 4,000 people.

KH: Wow. And how old… you were 20 years old….

WS: Twenty years old and I was 24 and a half when I got married that year and I've been married ever since.

KH: When did you get married… when you were 20.…

WS: 1946-when I got out of the service. I was out in March. I got married in July. We're still married… same woman, from College Hill.

KH: That's great.

WS: You know where College Hill is?

KH: College Hill sure. Right by Holy Cross.

WS: College Hill sure, well that hill it's…. My wife used to walk on top of that hill to South High School.

KH: Oh OK. Yeah sure. What was your family like? Did you have any brothers or sisters?

WS: I had a brother who died in 1924 for a gas leak. We had gas light in those years. My father and brother were in the little bedroom. And someone, the chip went off or something and they died of asphyxiation of gas.

KH: Oh no. That's horrible.

WS: 1924.

KH: That's horrible.

WS: Yeah. My mother was widowed at a very young age, so I was raised like an orphan. I lived with my grandmother and grandfather who raised nine children, and they took me on.

KH: Wow.

WS: They lived in a different era. They lived in the 1800s, know what I mean? No washing machines… no driers. No nothing. The simple things of life-I used box, cut everything up, killed chickens, can everything up.

KH: When you were with your grandparents or with your mother, did you experience any economic consequences because of the War? Were times harder for you?

WS: Well I was over there… oh yes.

KH: In that year you were still in Worcester.

WS: Oh yes. People had no money because we were in a Depression state in 1928-29. You didn't buy a plant in the windows, throw it out (did not get the name). My grandfather was a worker for American Steel & Wire Company, and they had a meager income. Even though they raised nine children, they had just the basic things of life. But, the ironic thing of everything, everyone was down and out, so they never knew the difference. Everybody was the same category.

KH: So they stayed, everyone was down and out until the War started?

WS: You never go anywhere. It costs money to travel. You never go anywhere. The travel car-that was the extent of travel.

KH: Wray, what were some of the biggest changes in your family life during the War?

WS: Not much changed, except that I wrote home when I could write home. You were always at sea and I can write you or at the APA Hall-you know letters went there. But, not much changed. I couldn't do nothing. I was at sea for 29 months-never got off the ship, except at ports.

KH: Before you went to the War, you said your grandfather worked for American Steel & Wire?

WS: Yes. 50 Years.

KH: He was still working at that point-when you went to War?

WS: No. He had retired. He was 81 years old-same as me-81.

KH: And how did the family support itself?

WS: By pension-American Steel pension.

KH: And did your grandmother work or your mother?

WS: No, nine children. No.

KH: Did your mother do anything?

WS: My mother worked at Filene's-the department store. In 1928, she was hired to work there and the pay was very meager. I know she made a lot of stuff because…. Instead of having lunch meat for sandwiches, my grandmother had chickens, my mother had egg sandwiches that would last her every day of the week for many many years-nothing else but egg sandwich. No, there was nothing else. We never bought cold cuts. At the end of the week, my grandmother allocates seven dollars me to go down to Ingstran's store, to see the person Mr. Ingstran, and he opens the files and takes the slip out. He says, "Your grandmother owes seven dollars for the week now." This was the entire week's supply of food.

KH: Oh ok. So you have a tab there?

WS: Yeah a tab. Well everyone had a tab. They didn't use debit. They had no money. You pay it on Saturday night. That's when they were allocated the checks.

KH: Quinsigamond seems to have more of a traditional family environment….

WS: When I lived in Quinsigamond… I was born there by Dr. Peter Coldberg, five dollars for delivery… 90% of the people were of Swedish, Norwegian, Danish… and they all segregated together because they had the language communication. These were all Greenhorns-the terminology. Anybody who came across from the pond, geographically settled in where the group was… you could communicate, like Belmont Hill was Swedes who were in a different villa, different sector see?

KH: Right.

WS: Yeah. That's why those Greenhorns all stuck together and they all worked on the mill. You go into the mill to work at six o'clock in the morning, the Greenhorns would be waiting outside at five o'clock in the morning waiting for work. They had no time cards, you just took a number and put it over there.

KH: Wow. OK. So, let's go into the War itself. How did you feel when Pearl Harbor was attacked?

WS: I was very discouraged. My cousin was in the Navy at the time. His name was Charles Addis. He lived in Quinsig, and his philosophy was that the United States government and marines and navy would blow Japan off the globe in two minutes for anything…. That was his philosophy. He came out of the Navy… Charles Addis his name was… went to work at Norton Company. And when that happened, December 7, 1942… that's when it happened… '41.

KH: How about D-Day? Do you remember D-Day?

WS: Yeah everybody was happy on D-Day. I was in India for D-Day?

KH: You were in India?

WS: Yeah. You have to have so many points to get back to States. I was on the ship, up on the Holy River, Prince's Gap. And they said that well those other points can get out when they get back, so I had to wait a month to get back to States in New York. I got a ride to Seattle, Washington. We separated there in Seattle, Washington. Stayed in a concentration camp up there-that they used for the army, put the sailors up there. We tied the ship up in port. And they were just the dry dock, moth ball fleet.

KH: So that's where you were when D-Day happened?

WS: No, no I was in India.

KH: You were in India. OK. But periodically you'd have to come back to the States?

WS: Yeah. You'd have to come back to the States to be separated. So they separated me in Seattle, Washington, after they dry-docked the ship and moth balled it. I took the Great Northern from Seattle to Washington, down to Baltimore and Boston. With no money, you never had no money. You bought the flower point in the window… (indistinguishable). No money. On the train, you had chits. On the train for lunch and everything, Pullman-you had chits. (unclear)

KH: How did you think about the enemy-the German, the Japanese?

WS: I never encountered the German people. I never encountered the Japanese people. I was always on the ship. We always had convoys, you know. Convoys from San Pedro to Australia. You were running with a group, ok?

KH: Yup.

WS: And, say a prayer to (indistinguishable) you ran over the Tazmian Sea over to New Zealand, and then you'd pick them up and go up to Sumatra, and from Sumatra up to, through the Indian Ocean up the Holy River, to Calcutta.

KH: OK.

WS: Now we'd pick up troops there-4,000 troops. CBI-China-Burma-India. And they'd been over there for many years and were all half-nuts. We had padded cells on the ship. You'd put them in and lock them in because they were half-nuts, and bring them back to States here.

KH: OK.

WS: Back again down to Singapore, down to Sri Lanka-they call it Salono. You'd circumvent the globe, over to aid in Arabia, up through the Red Sea, to Suez City, and then you you'd take a train to New York, separate them-take them off the ship. We used to take guns and B-nuts and you'd put them on the fan tail-that's the end of the ship-and throw them over the side. Tons and tons of ammunition, everything. And the food we had down in the galley, to feed 4,000 people a day, all over the side!

KH: Wow.

WS: Well they didn't want to take it into port, into New York. And in New York, we'd load the cargo up again. Then we'd run to La Jar, France. And in La Jar, France, we'd pick up those from the battle zone in Germany, bring them back. That's all we did was travel. Troop carrier… 4,000 people.

KH: OK. What was your sense of why we were fighting back then? What was the reason for going to War?

WS: I was a diplomat. I don't know. It was a misunderstanding. They say that Germany wanted to conquer the world-that's their prerogative. OK. And they would have conquered the world if we hadn't intervened over there.

KH: What about the Japanese?

WS: The Japanese are funny people. Yeah. You talk to Buddy Rudge up there about Japanese did you?

KH: I think my friend did in the class. Yup.

WS: Yeah he killed about 250 men. Yeah he did. On the islands, all the islands, they had tons and tons of islands down there that the Japanese inhibited, OK?. They were part of the soil. You either burn them out or kill them. They kill you at the drop of the hat. Life was expendable to them.

KH: Has the sense of why we were fighting changed at all as you look back on it now or did you look at things the same way when the War started?

WS: The older you get, you get mellow. You get a little flaky, in other words. You have a different idea of life. What the hell, what are you fighting for? You fight, you fight, you lose the battle.

KH: That's true. So when we talk about that one year period that you're still in Worcester, before you went, because you went into the Army in 1942, is that right?

WS: Uh huh.

KH: Talking about that one year period that you were in Worcester….

WS: One year… I was born in Worcester.

KH: You were born in Worcester.

WS: I was born in Quinsig Village.

KH: Quinsig Village, right. But between 1941, when the War started, and 1942, you were in Worcester for one year?

WS: Oh yeah, I've always resided in Worcester.

KH: OK. During that period, how distant was the War from you? Did they have any war-related activities….

WS: Oh, everything they had was about War. War bonds and this and that, the hill of Silasis…

KH: What's that? The hill of….

WS: Oh, what the hell is that… emperor… emperor… Hirohiti… "Down with Hirohiti" and all that. Very, very oriental war. People hated Japan. The Japanese… hated them. They were a very shady people. Life was expendable to them. They didn't care. You know they… take those planes they come by, fly right into you.

KH: The kamikaze?

WS: Kamikaze. Die for the emperor. There you go. Right.

KH: Did you go to any political rallies?

WS: No. I've never been politically oriented.

KH: Did you feel that there was a role for you as an individual to play, living in Worcester? Were there certain things that you did, sacrifices you made?

WS: Uh… I think you're born to do certain things. Yup.

KH: Did you notice anything in the Village itself… people making sacrifices?

WS: Well, I mean everything was rationed.

KH: Was that tough?

WS: You had coupons.

KH: You had coupons?

WS: Yeah, food coupons, yeah. You had cash food coupons. You could buy this, buy that or buy this and buy that. Everything, gasoline was rationed.

KH: Gasoline.

WS: Yeah, you'd only get so many gallons a week.

KH: There weren't that many cars though, right? They stopped making cars during the War I think.

WS: Oh, we didn't make cars for a long time. We stopped making cars… when did we stop? They made tanks and they made… jeeps. Everything pertained to the Army.

KH: Did you have any patriotic posters or decorations around the house?

WS: I imagine so. We had a poster up, "Kill the Japanese," you know.

KH: OK. Were you in high school right before the War started?

WS: I was in trade school.

KH: You were in trade school?

WS: Worcester Trade School, yeah.

KH: OK. Where's that?

WS: That's up… well up it's got a new name now-Worcester Industrial Tech. It's up there. Yeah.

KH: Did you learn anything about the War in school?

WS: No. They were more interested in trying to teach you.

KH: Yeah. What was the news coverage like during the War?

WS: Everything was predicated on the German front or the Japanese front.

KH: Worcester Telegram and Gazette?

WS: Worcester Telegram and Gazette. Yeah, they had good distribution then. We got the Saturday Evening Post too. They used to be on Foster St., but they fazed out because Telegram and Gazette dominated everything you know? It was owned by Mr. Stoddard.

KH: Mr. Stoddard?

WS: Stoddard yeah. Another WASP.

KH: Did you listen to the radio a lot during this time?

WS: Yes. Well, sure. 1946-we had a seven inch television. We got married in '47. We had a 12 inch magnifier. That's when "Texaco" show was on there. Milton Berle was on there. Everything was live. They had no live like they do ad-lib today.

KH: What were your opinions of F.D.R. and the government in general?

WS: F.D.R.? He was a good man. He was just a person that had to be there, OK? And Truman superceded him. And Truman was a, I think the highest he attained was a sargeant or something like that. He was bossing five star generals around.

[Wray briefly talks to co-worker].

WS: Now Harry Truman… he had a lot of guts.

KH: Yeah, I think so too.

WS: He brought McArthur back from Korea. McArthur wanted to annihilate Korea. He pulled him back and fired him on Midway. Literally fired him!

KH: I remember reading about that.

WS: Yeah. He's a five star general, know what I mean?

KH: Yeah. Do you see any difference in the way you remember the War and the way it is portrayed in movies?

WS: I don't really like movies. Movies accentuate a lot of things. That's not how it is.

KH: Do you remember the movies that came out right after the war? Like, "The Green Berets"?

WS: No… no. I used to go to movies in India.

KH: In India! Wow.

WS: Everybody went… and when you get up, everybody had to sing "God Save the King," like "My country tis of thee…". (italics) All of that was there. And you stood up in honor of King George, who was kind of England. They had allegiance… India was owned by England.

KH: Right.

WS: Even the monetary system was all predicated on the…

KH: English currency.

WS: Yeah. They had rubles and everything else.

KH: What kinds of things did you do before the War for fun? What kinds of things did you do in Worcester for fun… before the War?

WS: Well… up to Greenwood Park and played ball. One ball, one bat and one glove.

KH: That's all you needed.

WS: That's all I had, you know.

KH: Did you go into downtown Worcester or White City?

WS: Very seldom. I had no occasion to go up there, you know? No occasion to go to Worcester center. What the hell. Never went down to White City, never had no money to spend to go down there.

KH: Yeah.

WS: The rides were probably five cents or ten cents but… that was a long way from Quinsig you know. You had to take a trolley car down.

KH: That's true.

WS: Trolley car went up Greenwood Street then circumvented and down, right down here on Shrewsbury St., right down at the bottom to White City… no not White City Park… Lincoln Park.

KH: Lincoln Park, OK. Let's talk about the trolleys a little bit.

WS: OK, I loved the trolleys.

KH: They were there from the time you were born?

WS: Oh yes… before that.

KH: And they… obviously they're no longer here… when did they….

WS: Oh God… they fazed out a long time ago but I'd like to see the trolleys come back because they're more efficient I think.

KH: I think so. Yeah.

WS: Of course, you get on a trolley down in Quinsig, you can go up to the Summit, or you can go to Auburn, you can go anywhere you want for ten cents. Just… what you do is you get a transfer up at City Hall, and you have a transfer.

KH: Right. So you used them a lot?

WS: When I went to school, when I went to Worcester Boy's Trade, I had the trolley car. It took twenty five minutes a week, both ways. No lunch… egg sandwich again for lunch.

KH: Did you belong to any social organizations during the War?

WS: No. No.

KH: There was a Boy's Club I think on Ionic Ave....

WS: Yes.

KH: Did you go to that?

WS: No, I never went there. We had an assembly hall down at American Steel where if you had a basketball you could play.

KH: Oh OK. Cause your grandfather worked there, so you had access to it?

WS: Yeah. Everything predicated around the wire mill, around the assembly hall. Movies on Saturday morning there. Everybody got there, like a thousand smells, know what I mean? Everybody stunk. Nobody knew it because everybody stunk with them. OK? And watched the movies. You know flickers… not great movies.

KH: So everyone… anyone who worked for American Steel, their family had access to all these kinds of things?

WS: Yeah. Yeah, we had every party… and my grandfather, grandmother married many man years ago... fifty years we had a big party there. All the beer was kept in a wash bucket-a big bucket. They had no refrigeration then. And the sandwiches… rough and tumble sandwiches… slice of bread and throw it on, throw the meat there.

KH: That's pretty nice. Did your grandfather like American Steel and Wire-the company?

WS: He worked there fifty years. Never late in fifty years. I've still got the clipping from him: "Alexander Robert Wray. He worked for American Steel Fifty Years-Never late." No time was he late. He had to work with nine kids!

KH: Right.

WS: Nine children I should say. "Kids" are for *

KH: Do you have any religious affiliation?

WS: Yes, I have the Episcopal Church. Right down on Southbridge Street down there. I was married there.

KH: What's the name of that Church?

WS: St. Matthew's Episcopal Church.

KH: St. Matthew's Episcopal. And what was your parish when you were growing up in Quinsigamond?

WS: Huh?

KH: What was your parish when you were growing up in Quinsigmond?

(Wray's co-worker briefly talks to Wray)

WS: Uh… I went to the Congregational Church because everyone went to Congregational Church. And consequently, all my… friends who went there… they're all dead now.

KH: Where is the Congregational Church?

WS: Right down… Quinsig… the big white, white beautiful church. It was built many, many, many years ago. And I was confirmed there in 1935. And ninety percent of the people I was confirmed with… I went down to a reunion last June… only three showed up, the rest were all dead.

KH: Oh geez.

WS: They're gone!

KH: That's too bad.

WS: I've got pictures of them, pictures of them, oh sure.

KH: Was there any change in your faith life once the War started? Did they start talking about the War after 1941-prayers and prayer ceremonies?

WS: Oh yeah, everything was prayers. We still have prayers today over there. We have prayers for the young boys that are in service, OK? And the people who are wounded, people that are sick, and you know…. As a matter of fact, there's a girl that's in the choir, who name is Sonia Irving. She sings up at Holy Cross in the choir.

KH: Oh OK.

WS: And her husband, she's a blonde woman, her husband is the organist. He's the music director for Worcester Academy.

KH: Was there more of an attendance at Church once the War started?

WS: Oh yeah. Everybody prayed on a weekly basis. Now, I've got to confess, not that many anymore. There's no rhyme or reason but the young people… they don't go.

KH: Were there any prayer services because of the War?

WS: Yes. All pertain about the boys in the service, and the girls in the service, you know. Probably 40% of the whole service itself predicated around the war**. It wasn't very religious but it was really down to earth you know.

KH: Was the parish in support of the War?

WS: Yeah. Yeah they supported it sure, what the heck, yeah. The man that built that Church owned all those mills there. Whittall mills.

KH: What was his name?

WS: Matthew Whittall.

KH: Matthew Whittall. OK.

WS: Now Whittall Square is there-all those stores there. He had a big palatial palace there. Now he offered to give it to Holy Cross and raze it as long as they built a building up there and put "Matthew Whittall" on the building, and they wouldn't do it, so he sold it and they took it down. And he had another mansion down in Millbury, down on Shrewsbury… still there!

KH: Oh Whittall mansion. Yeah, I know where that is. Sure.

WS: These people are multi-millionaires in the 1800s!

KH: Yeah.

WS: They found had to weave rugs and design a rug-Whittal rugs. Everybody in South Worcester worked for Whittal's. My wife worked there for a little while.

KH: Did Sweden's neutral position during the War….

WS: Huh?

KH: Did Sweden's neutral position during the War, did the fact that Sweden was neutral, did that change the way people looked at people living in Quinsigamond?

WS: They're still the same way. They're still neutral. They weren't in a war for 500 years. They're all lovers.

KH: Did the fact that Sweden was neutral when America entered the War. Did that influence the way people thought about people in Quinsig?

WS: No. No. They were on the same plateau as the Swiss people. They didn't believe in engaging in War. You know, or Norway or Denmark-they're all neutral countries.

KH: Uh huh. So it wasn't a big deal that the Swedes were kind of indifferent to it?

WS: No. No. The English were warmongers.

KH: The English were warmongers?

WS: Yes. I saw a documentary film one time on television. One battle they lost 28,000 people against the archers-the Saxons and the Moors. And France has been warmongers for years too. And Germany. Germany sought to be the best race in the world. That's their philosophy.

KH: How did you find out the War had ended?

WS: I was on the ship. I was on the AP141, and I was in India when it ended. Everybody was shooting guns and you know. And the Hindus, the Hindus thought you were crazy. What do they have? They have Hindus and….

KH: Muslims.

WS: Muslims has a little bow in his hair. He believes he has a bow in his hair. He believes in reincarnation. If he gets to die, Allah will pick him up by that thing and bring him up to Heaven.

KH: Yeah.

WS: I remember them burning gas in India. Watch them burn bodies. What the hell, Calcutta… sanitary condition… every morning they pick up all the dead, throw them on the burning gas. They dip them in the Holy River, that's a tributary of the Ganges, then put them on the burner and burn them. 35 cents.

KH: What was life like once you came back to Worcester? You got married.

WS: Yeah I got married. I've been married ever since. It's the same.

KH: And you lived in Worceseter. Did you benefit from the G.I. loan?

WS: No. I went to work. We came out of the service, we had a 51-20. You go twenty weeks, and $51 a month if you want to take it. And I never took it. I never took a dime. I went to work. I never got a cent. $200 from the state of Massachusetts and $100 from the city of Worcester. I got married for $300 bucks. That's the extent. I went to Ausserby, New Hampshire for my honeymoon. There's nothing up there. There's nothing but woods. Yup. 1946. My wife said, "This is beautiful!" What a dump!

(Wray jokes around with his friend at work)

KH: Is there anything you think is important that we haven't talked about today?

WS: I think you pretty much covered it. Anything else you think of, you can call me, and I'll give you a logical answer.

KH: OK. Yeah. I think we've run the gamut.