Interview with Cecile Dickinson
By Kevin Walsh
At Tatnuk Park
4/11/02
What is your name?
Cecile Dickinson
And you lived in Worcester during World War II?
Yes
How old were you when the war was going on?
I was about 46 I think.
You were 46 when the war went on?
Yes.
Wow. Where did you live here?
I lived at 20 knolls road which is right off of Tatnuk Sq. right beyond here a little way.
What d you do, for money?
What did I do? I was working at the public library in the reference room. In the public library at the time. Before that I had worked at Norton company. I was working at the department that had huge machines. Everything that we said went on the machines, everything we did went on the machines, so that it was very complicated and I did that for a while at Norton Company in Worcester and from there I went to the public library.
Were you married?
O wasn’t married at the time, I got married when my husband got out of the service, 1945.
Did you know your husband before he went into the war or the man who would be your husband before he went in to the war?
He was in the service. He went in 1941 I think, the beginning of the draft period. He was there for x number of year, 1945 we got married, he was there 4 years in the army, he was in the army for 4 years in Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and also, well, that was the main place, Fort Bragg, that’s where he was, North Carolina.
Did he go to Europe at all or Japan?
Oh yes, he was in Europe the whole time. He was in Europe for 4 years. He went from England to Africa to wherever. He was in all of the major encounters in Europe. So it was not rosy, it was a bad time. It was a horrible time for those left behind and it was a terrible time for people who were in the service.
So, what was the atmosphere like when all of the men who were in Worcester went off to war?
What was it like when?
When the men went off to war, was it different here in Worcester because there were less men?
Oh yes, there were very less men and everything was, your on your own, and heaven help you if you needed somebody. There wasn’t anyone around that you could turn to for any advice or any sustenance at all. The men were gone, so that took care of that. The backbone of Worcester was severed.
So, how did you cope and how did Worcester cope with this?
Oh well, I went to work everyday and I worked at the courthouse at that time. I went to work everyday and worked well and had no problems with going to work and I had my friends that I hung out with and we took off and went to the beach on the weekends and stuff like that. So, we did things on our own more or less due to the fact that we had to, it was that or nothing. So, we made the best of it and I think that everyone made the best of it.
Did a lot of women go to work in the factories?
I didn’t work in the factory, I think there was a big influx of people that worked in the factories around the cities.
Do you think that this gave women more power? When women went to work in the factories, do you think that gave them more power?
Oh, I think it did. I think women now have it much better than they did then. They are more independent, they are more capable of taking care of themselves and their families and I think that it was a boost for women. We were too dependant on the men.
What was Worcester like before the war?
What was Worcester like before the war…oh it was wonderful. Things were really great, there was no unemployment, people were employed and they pursued their lives as normally as they could. They that wanted to go to college went to college and those that don’t, don’t and everyone fell into their own niche. That’s was it was like before.
So, when Pearl Harbor happened, how did Worcester react?
How did what?
Worcester react to Pearl Harbor and entering the war.
Well, I remember that I was at my daughter’s house that night, I took the bus home and we lived downtown and the confectionery store was open. So, I stopped in and bought a box of candy, a half pound of candy to bring home because I was feeling low and depressed because I knew that he was going to have to go because he was already way up there in the numbers and so I decided that I better get myself a fix, so I did, I bought the box of candy on the way home. People were dumbfounded in a way, that was the main thing. They didn’t know what to say and they didn’t know what to do. People were confused and they didn’t really understand what was about to happen or what occurred and they weren’t anticipating things as bad as they were. So, I think that people were a little stoic, a little more relaxed about it. They felt bad, I’m sure they felt really bad. Well, for instance, I felt bad when my husband went off because we had been sweethearts since highschool. How can they do this, but we were 20 years old, old enough to know better. That’s the way the world was going and we had to follow suit. There was nothing we could do.
You said you had a daughter.
I have a daughter, I have 2 daughters, they’re both in their 40’s. Let me see, Nancy is 32 and Sally is 34 or 35 and they’re both married and settled. Married sortof, married or not divorced. I think it was upsetting for them to have their Dad taken off.
How old were they when your husband left?
Probably, lets see, Sally was in college, she must have been in her 20’s. She graduated when she was what, I don’t remember. Nancy was a teenager when he went off. But she had friends who had also been pulled away from what they were doing and were sent off. So, she was used to the idea that the kids were gone.
It was very upsetting for your daughter?
It was a bad time for them, yeah.
So, during the war, how did Worcester change? Was there a noticable difference from before the war to during the war?
No, um, they just went along from day to day with what they were doing and they just led an normal life and did what you’d expect them to do. They were pretty normal kids.
Well, not just your daughters, but Worcester as a whole, was there a big difference in the atmosphere?
Oh, there was a difference in the atmosphere, I think people were saddened by the fact that our boys had to go. They were saddened by that. I think there was a feeling of despair, it was a bad feeling about what was going to happen. I think that people are always kindof worried about what is going to take place and I think there was a general feeling of that. And I think that everyone felt like they were sort of vulnerable and waiting for something to happen and then it didn’t happen that badly. So people were sort of satisfied or happy in a way. I don’t really know what it was like during the war. It was a long time ago, a lot of water has flowed under the bridge since then.
There was a lot of pro-American sentiment and propaganda supporting obviously the soldiers that we sent to war. Did you get a sense of that during the war? Did you really feel the pro-American sentiment here in Worcester?
Oh, I felt the whole thing because I got the letters all the time from Europe, all over Europe and he was wonderful about sending things. And I knew exactly what was happening in his area and so I got sorta used to that kindof numb. A letter would come and I wouldn’t want to read it because I knew what it was gonna be and I felt kindof sad that we had to go through this, for what, for nothing.
What sense did you get that America was fighting the war? What sense did the people of Worcester have?
Oh, I thought it was really a lot of bologna. I think that it could have been settled otherwise. If people were more forgiving. I think people had to be more forgiving. I think people had to be more, whats the word, more tuned into the world. I think in Worcester, we weren’t. We were a small community without a lot of experience in that sort of thing although they had been through a war before, WWI they had been through, which was also another stupidity as far as I was concerned. And I think these things were very stupid. Its like two children meeting eachother and one of them picks on the other and the other ones gonna fight back. It’s the same idea, they’re gonna fight back because they hurt your feelings and someone did something that wasn’t right or you didn’t approve of and I think that’s what happening in the world right now with the Israelis and the Palastinians and I think the same thing is happening all over again and its kindof too bad in a way. And I read the paper and I am saddened by that. The fact that they don’t understand eachother, there is no common ground. That there is no common ground between these two nations. They want to each go their own way and do their own things and you can’t do that. The world isn’t made that way.
What religion are you? What religion do you believe in?
Oh, I’m Catholic.
Did you get a sense of community from the Church during the war?
From my church, not at all. As a matter of fact, I have dropped out of the Catholic religion completely due to many circumstances.
So the Church provided little support and comfort.
No, not really, I wouldn’t say so. The Church did as a whole, as a body it did, but I think for individuals it did nothing.
So what did you turn to to cope with the fact that your husband had left?
What I think is appropriate is for the Church to step in and tell you how they feel. People have feelings you know and I think the Church has feelings and I think that they have to let their feelings be known what they think about things. What they really think about things and what they really feel and I don’t think that its done that a lot. Not any of the things that I read in the paper comfort me at all.
So what did comfort you during the war. What comforted you during the war when your husband was away?
Well, my husband worked for himself. When he got out, he went to school and got his degree. Well, I really don’t know.
How was the community that you lived in, the neighborhood that you lived in? What kindof neighborhood was it?
My neighborhood was wonderful, it was a small neighborhood and there was a lot of mixed nationalities within the neighborhood and all my children went to school with the other neighbors children and there was a real feeling of togetherness and it was nice for that reason. I did like the neighborhood, it was wonderful. Also, the school was excellent. Right over there at May Street School, that’s where they went to school. And I think they got some solace from the church. I’m not sure how much they got. They were not devoted children, I mean devout. They went to Sunday school because I made them go to Sunday school and that was about it. That was my kids. They had friends in all denominations and they liked all their friends and they were very popular in school and did real well. They were not torn apart by leaving the neighborhood or having their father away or whatever.
So, do you think the community kind of provided a sense of support for you as well as your daughters?
I think they did real well. I think that my girls were brought up to be very independent and to be thinkers. They probably mulled this over in their minds a million times and they thought over what they were going say and how they were going to feel and they probably did feel that way.
What were the views of the Germans and the Japanese during the war here in America?
I think they had no ill feelings towards anyone, I don’t think my children had any ill feelings.
Not your children, but people in America, like people in Worcester in general.
Oh I think that the people had ill feelings against the Germans a lot because they seemed to be more aggressive and stood out more. But I don’t know as they had many feelings about the Japanese.
What about Pearl Harbor, didn’t they feel like that was sort of a sneak attack?
I don’t think that most people had feelings about things like that. I think they went on with their business as usual and life just went on on sort of an even keel and seems to me that’s how it was. I don’t know…
You said you worked at Norton for a little while?
I was at Norton’s Company for quite a while. I was there about two years or more and I did work there for a while.
Did you notice that they really mobilized behind the war effort?
I guess probably, yes. But I didn’t think anything of it. I’m not a very deep thinker person. I mean, I take things as they are and whatever way it is that’s the way I take it. I’m not partial to anyone or anything and I’m am no longer like that.
So, how did the news portray all of the events in Europe and the Pacific?
How did the news come out?
Yeah.
Well, it isn’t like the news now a days. It was dramatic, exciting, exhausting in a way, and, uh, I don’t know.
How did you find your husband’s letters in comparison with the news broadcasts?
Oh, he was like a different person when he came back. Absolutely, absolutely different. First of all, he was a very deep thinker of a person. Anyway, he came from a very bad family who had had a lot of trouble in their lives, the mother and the father. So he came from a large family that was not well organized and I came from a, my father was a lawyer, and I came from that type of family. I was just that one grade above what he was, what his family was going through. It was very hard for me to get down to the level that they were in a way. In the way that his father and the way that his mother…and he was like a different person and we were a very odd shaped couple because of his background and because of my background, they were two different things, absolutely. It’s a wonder it ever worked out as well as it did. But we were married for 65 years and then he passed away and that was a short time cause we had started to go out together in high school and he was 75 when he died which was long time from high school. So there were many years in between which were wonderful, good, solid years with the children and having a home and good position and all that. They were wonderful years so I can’t find any fault in that but the difference in our upbringing was very different. I was brought up one way and he was brought up a different way with the father always drunk and the mother carousing around and I came from a very stable family and I think it made a lot of difference and I think it showed in our lives, what we were like as human beings because he could take anything and I couldn’t take anything and so I think that it made a difference in him when he came back from the war. He was very punctual and he was very together with it and I wasn’t.
So, what was happened when the war ended and when the soldiers came home? How were they received and what was it like when the war ended, was there a tremendous celebration?
Was there a celebration in Worcester, not that I know of. There were parades and things like that and soldiers marching in Main street and so forth but I don’t remember any big celebration that I can think of except that we got married. That was a big celebration as far as I was concerned. Five days after he was released from the army, we were married.
So, you had children before you were married?
Before we were married, what happened? Oh, we had a wonderful time together, we were together all the time. In school and out of school, after work and before work and whatever. We were always together and we had a wonderful time and wonderful vacations and things like that. And so we just acted like teenage kids because we were off and having a good time. Which is what kids do. We did everything that they do. We played a lot of tennis and had a good time all of the time. That’s what we did and it wasn’t any different than any other teenagers.
So, wait, your daughters were in college and one was a teenager when he went of to war?
She was at Worcester State and she went to Clark University and she was a chemist and, uh, she got out and around quite a bit in her college days and had a good time, never had a steady boyfriend till she met this kid and she married him, she was about 18 years old, she was a junior, senior in high school. He was from an old family that lived in our neighborhood and they were a very loving family. But this kid was brought up with a thousand other people and they didn’t hit it off so she got a divorce from him and now she lives with her boyfriend who is a landscaper. He takes care of her property and they have a wonderful life together. She was just here this weekend. She moved me in here with my other daughter. And my other daughter was also married to someone who was, well, he was a party boy and he was out all the time and she got a divorce from him. She has two children, they both lived with me, and she had two. So, she lives in one of the neighboring towns down in Spencer she lives. She has a beautiful home down there and she doesn’t need anybody for anything, she can do it on her own and I can do things on my own. I am very independent and I can figure out what I want without any advice from anybody.
When you husband left for the war, you’re daughters were like 20 right? Or one of them was.
We were not married at that time.
But did you have children?
Oh, they felt really bad when he went.
But you had children before you got married to your husband?
Oh yes, I had them before I got married.
Ok, so did you notice anything different in the way you were treated because you weren’t married?
I didn’t think that it was so bad. So what, so what, that’s what I feel. So sue me, you know? That’s an attitude I have which is not a current attitude generally.
So, during the war, when your husband wasn’t here, what did you do for recreation? Did you volunteer at any war organizations?
Oh, we went out. I had a friend that lived in a small town and we used to go dancing on Saturday night, we’d have a dance. We would dance in one of the Church halls and we’d go dancing. And then I’d go weekends at the beach and things like that. I’d always meet somebody that I liked or knew and we’d get along well. I just lived a normal life. I went to work everyday and on the weekends I’d take off and do other things do other things that were more fun type things than working and that’s like most people, that’s what I did.
Did you get involved in any of the war organizations like USO or anything here at home?
No, we were not war-like people. We didn’t collect things for the army and we didn’t save fat for the soldiers or whatever we were supposed to do. But we didn’t do any of that so therefore we didn’t enter the spirit of the whole thing.
What about rationing, did that affect your life at all?
What?
Rationing, with the stamps and food.
Well, we weren’t starving, we had rationing at the time and we did ration well. I don’t know it seemed as though life just went on in its own simple way.
Did you notice that Worcester really got behind the war effort? Like, Worcester as a city, did it really get involved or no?
Well, I don’t know.
What was your general sense, did you think a lot of people were collecting war bonds?
No, didn’t think about that.
But did you notice it? Did people come to your door a lot?
Oh yes, they were very into it. I think in people in general were very into it. The reason I wasn’t was because we’ve done it all before and so what. Nothing came of it. So that was the end of that. It was more of a logical solution.
Did you want to support your husband at war?
Oh yes I did, I really did. I have a copy of his journal that he kept right through Europe and I’ve been reading that. Its amazing how he refers back to what used to be, how we used to do so and so and do things together and what it meant to him and things like that.
So, how did you support your husband during the war, how did you feel you supported him?
Oh, I wrote to him almost everyday and I sent many packages overseas, as many as I could or as many as they would allow. I just supported him all the way.
So, you didn’t agree with the war but you wanted to support your husband still?
I always say you come back when you’re coming back and I hope its soon and I’ll be here for you when you get back.
Right, but you didn’t really agree with us fighting the war per se?
Oh, I think it was a waste of men and money and everything else.
So, how did you feel about the atomic bomb that we used on Japan?
Oh, the atomic bomb, I think that was a huge mistake, I think that people are afraid to discuss what they really feel and I think that what happens to people when they get really old is that they want to discuss what they’re thinking and how they feel. I think that a lot of things could be settled without, say, an atomic bomb. If people would just put all of their thoughts on hold and think about the positive and not the negative. I think this is what’s happening now with the Israelites and the Palestinians.
Did you ever engage anyone in debate about the atomic bomb at the time?
No
Or was it just like everyone agreed because they almost had to?
No, never. Well, with my daughters I think I kind of let go a few thoughts with them because they were growing up and settling down to their lives. But, I always made a note that the most important thing in my life was their father, that was the most important thing in my whole life and without that I think they might have run into more trouble in their own lives. They’re more independent. I was, I still am a very independent person. I don’t need anybody or anything beyond what’s in my mind which is kind of egotistical I suppose.
How did the public react to FDR?
Oh, I think at the end, it was jubilant, that it was the end, that they were wondering what the end would bring.
No, how did they react to the president though, Roosevelt?
Well, I don’t know. I think people were wondering what it was all about and why they were put in the position that they were put in and I think that’s the general feeling of the public.
So, do you think that the people thought that we should have gone to war and that it was something that we had to do or do you think they thought that it wasn’t really our place?
Well, I think they thought that it wasn’t their place.
So, you would say that people didn’t really agree with the president’s decision to go to war?
Well, they were against it a lot, I think, generally speaking. I think people were against the whole concept of that. You see, it wasn’t that long ago, what 1930’s, 40’s. People’s minds are still very tuned into that. To the deprivation of, to the, I don’t know. They were without the people that they love and want to have close by People at this point in time are just hoping that the world keeps peaceful without all this rumble going on. So, I don’t care if you’re Jewish and you’re Islam, I don’t care about that. You’re you, you’re a person. You have feelings and you have emotions like everybody else and what you’re beliefs are, I don’t care.
So, was there any public protests or public controversy about the war, during the war?
Well, I don’t know.
Can you recall any specific instances in Worcester?
I don’t know.
So, did you ever actually talk to anyone about their beliefs about the war?
No, never. I have never spoken to anybody about that because its gone, its done.
But during the war, did you ever have discussions with your friends about your feelings on the war?
No, never, not ever.
Do you think that was common for Americans?
I think people do talk about that a lot and I think in a family group it might come up for general conversation but with my family it never has.
So, do you think it was more, we’re already doing this, we have to accept that fact that we’re doing this?
It’s a thing that happened and that’s that. Its done and overwith and from yesterday. So, we had that feeling in my home that what happened yesterday has nothing to do with today unfortunately.
Did you hear anything about the holocaust during the war?
Oh yes.
During the war even?
Oh yes, I heard about that and I think that it is deplorable. The whole thing, the whole concept is deplorable, but how do you prevent something like that. How do you prevent somebody’s thoughts from going in the direction, you can’t do that.
So, how did you hear about that?
Oh, probably through the newspaper and the radio.
Did you hear about that early on in the war or later?
Yeah
Early?
Yes, I did.
And do you think that was a legitimate reason to fight the war?
No, I don’t think it was, I think it might have been something that could have been done something about if they had taken the time to think it over and do it. It was something that could have been remedied in its infancy without all this doo-doo.
There has been evidence that the president knew about the concentration camps before hand.
Oh, I think they knew and regardless of what anyone thinks today, I think that they know more than you think they know. Whoever is in charge, they always are, they know, they have a way of finding out, they have a way of finding out and regardless of what they do, its got to be the right thing because its something that they’re told.
But, do you think that we should’ve done something about this earlier because we knew about it?
Oh, I think they should have, but its too late now to think abou that. I think at the time people maybe felt that they should do something about that, but not its too late. Its all water under the bridge, its all gone by. I have to live more in the future than in the past. That’s all I got. You should have asked, and the answer is definitely no, why should I go back?
Do you feel as though it was a good time in… recently, they’ve been calling your generation the greatest generation. Do you feel as though that’s an accurate description?
I think that’s ridiculous. I think that people go back to something that they don’t want or that they hated because they know what its like and people are slow to change their minds about things. I think that’s what happens to people.
When FDR died, how did that effect the public?
After you die?
FDR, the president, Franklin Roosevelt, when he died, how did that effect?
I think it was just too bad. I think he was a wonderful man and I think that he really did what he thought was the right thing at the right time and I think that it was really just too bad that he had to have that kind of end to his life.
Did you hear anything about the Japanese internment camps during the war?
No.
Did you hear anything about it afterwards?
Maybe.
Ok, I was just curious. Was there prejudice in Worcester?
I don’t have any ill feelings towards anyone.
Was there prejudice in Worcester against any specific group?
I don’t think so. I don’t think there was much of that bad feeling at all, might have been in certain quarters, but not generally. We all led a pretty good life you know, up until then. Then of course rationing came in, and things came in that were bad, but they weren’t that bad, thinking back.
Did you ever question any of the government’s policy?
No, they weren’t that bad, things were not as they were but they weren’t that bad.