Ruth Burgoyne (RB): B-u-r-g-o-y-n-e

MM: And your first name?

RB: Ruth

MM: And your birthday?

RB: My birthday? What is it now? April 8, 1918.

MM: Well, I guess my first question is, how did you hear about the bombing of Pearl Harbor?

RB: How did I find out? Must have been on the news?

Norman Burgoyne (NB): On the radio.

RB: Must have been on the news

MM: On the radio?

RB: I would say.

MM: What was your first thought?

RB: Terrible. Yeah, that was my first thought.

MM: Do you have one particular memory of the war years? One thing that stands out in your mind over everything else?

RB: All the deaths, you know. All the boy who were killed. Yeah.

MM: Sadness mostly? Or?

RB: Yeah, it was very sad. Yeah.

MM: You had a daughter during the war, did you say?

RB: Yes I did. She was three years old.

MM: What was it like to have a child grow up during such a difficult time?

RB: It was hard, yes, it was hard. Yeah, I had an apartment on Whipple street. I was living all by myself and I was getting 80 dollars a month, I was paying 22 dollars a month rent. You know, plus my own food and supplies. And I made it fine.

MM: You made it work somehow?

RB: Yes, I did. I did.

MM: Did you daughter ask questions about where her dad was or about the war?

RB: Of yeah, oh yeah. We used to write back and forth. And she used to scribble. She used to write too, we sent pictures.

MM: Did she ask questions?

RB: Oh yeah. I remember that

NB: She was only three years old

RB: Yeah, she was little

NB: She was small

RB: In fact she lost his papers, one time remember?

NB: I came home on leave and I couldn't find my papers and after I gone back they found them stuck in the books, in the book case. She had been drawing pictures on them.

RB: We were so excited.

MM: Did you, did you go to work during the war, or did you stay home with your daughter?

RB: No, I stayed home, took care of my daughter.

MM: Did you have a choice about that, did you want to work?

RB: No, no. I was lucky I didn't have to. You know? None of my friends worked either. We all had children, remember? Lydia had a little boy, and I had Norma, and Ellen had a little girl, yeah.

MM: So what was your typical day like?

RB: We didn't go anyplace. We didn't, we couldn't afford to do anything, you know. So we just stayed home. We used to visit back and forth. One week we'd be at my house with the children, the next week we went to another friend's house. That's how we passed the time. My mother lived close by, I used to go over there for dinner. She used to baby-sit for me a lot. And then his mother lived not too far away. They were very good to us. Yeah.

MM: What did you and the other mothers talk about mostly?

RB: About the war, and one of the girls, Lydia husband was overseas, wasn't he?

NB: Yeah.

RB: No, Lydia's husband was here. He was in the navy, Lowell.

NB: No, he was out to sea.

RB: Yeah, he was out to see yeah.

NB: Johnny was in Africa.

RB: Yeah.

NB: I was in Memphis Tennessee, going to school. It was the Japanese I think that surrendered first, wasn't it? I was in school in Memphis Tennessee when they surrendered. Then I was out to California. I was stationed in California, they sent me to school in Florida. I was in Florida when the war ended. Then I had to back to California and stay until I got discharged.

RB: He enlisted

MM: Oh, ok.

RB: Norman enlisted. Yeah, see because we were married that's why they didn't…and he couldn't see being the only man around, so he enlisted.

NB: The company didn't want me to go, and I wanted to.

MM: What company was that?

NB: Johnson steel and wire.

MM: Steel and wire.

NB: I worked there 42 years.

MM: Ahm, what did you tell your children about why you were fighting the war? What did you tell your kids?

NB: Gee, I really don't know if they were really old enough to really understand that there even was a war. all they knew was that their fathers weren't home.

RB: I don't remember, really.

MM: What was your sense of why we were fighting the war? How did you perceive the enemies?

RB: Oh, I thought it was awful, terrible. Terrible, terrible.

MM: Did you see the Japanese as different from the Germans or...

NB: All just the same

RB: Oh, I thought they were all the same. Yeah

MM: Did everyone in the village support the war?

NB: yes they did

MM: Even though they had to make a lot of sacrifices?

RB: Oh yes.

NB: Sure.

RB: Oh yes. See I've forgotten a lot now. Its been a long time.

MM: Did you feel like the war was close to you? Or did you feel like the war was something far away?

RB: Far away, yeah.

MM: Did you, did you participate in buying war bonds?

RB: OH yes, we did.

MM: What else did you do to support the war?

RB: I don't really remember. Yeah. No, I didn't do anything.

MM: What, what sacrifices did the village have to make during the war, besides losing its men? Was there anything else in particular that you can remember?

NB: I don't think so. I was telling you then, you had Johnson steel and Wire, they employed about 4-500 people, and American steel and wire they employed thousands and it's all gone.

MM: Did any of your woman friends go to work at the wire companies?

RB: No.

MM: No?

RB: No.

MM: They all stayed home?

RB: Yes

MM: Did you own or did you see a lot of patriotic posters or decorations at that time?

RB: Yeah. I think so. There were a lot of black outs, I know that. I lived in a 3 decker. My friend lived upstairs and I remember there were a lot of blackouts. I remember that.

MM: Where did you learn about the progress of the war? Did you learn about it on the radio or newspapers?

RB: I imagine the radio. The radio mostly, yeah.

NB: They had no television in those days.

RB: Cause at that time we didn't have television.

MM: What did you think about FDR and the way he conducted himself and the Americans during the war?

RB: I thought he was great. See I haven't thought about this. Its bringing back a lot of memories at that time. I haven't thought about it, you know?

MM: It is a long time ago. Something that I have a difficult time comprehending.

RB: See I'm 84 years old.

MM: Couldn't tell!

RB: But I am. See to me, that's a long, long time ago.

MM: Do you see any difference now in the way the war is portrayed you know, in books, and through the movies. Do you see any difference between how the war is portrayed now, and when it was actually happening?

NB: Then all the young people went to war, the boys, you saw the planes flying overhead and the army trucks going back and forth and now, we're at war and you don't even know what's going on.

RB: Yeah, you don't see anything like that anymore.

NB: So you got a different kind of a war today.

RB: Yup.

MM: Do you think of your generation as being heroic?

RB: Oh yes. Oh yes. We did lose some friends, didn't we norm?

NB: Yeah.

RB: Yeah. We lost 2-3 friends in the war.

MM: Did you stay in the village mostly? Or did you ever go into White City or downtown Worcester? Or did you stay mostly in the village.

RB: We'd take the bus, was it the bus? No, it was the street car, we'd take the street car down to the city, down to Worcester. Maybe once every two weeks or something like that. Yeah, we had street cars, remember Norm?

NB: Yup.

MM: Did you belong to any social organizations during the war? Or was it just you and your friends informally?

RB: Yeah.

MM: Informal?

RB: Yeah.

MM: Did you go to church more often or less often or the same?

RB: Oh we went to church about the same. About the same as we do now.

MM: What church did you go to?

RB: Quinsigamond Methodist.

MM: Did you, did you notice an increase in numbers of those who would go to prayer or to church during the war?

RB: Oh yes, a lot of people went to church, more so than now.

MM: Do you think it was because of the crisis?

RB: Well, it could be? Could be, yeah.

MM: Did your local parish support the war? did the Methodists in general support the war?

RB: Oh sure, yeah.

MM: Did you notice any rivalries between, rivalries between the Quinsigamond village area and other areas in Worcester?

NB: Not really. There wasn't a lot of rivalries.

RB: These are hard questions.

MM: You think?

NB: Not then, as much as there is now. Now, there is Hispanic and blacks. God, you saw a black person walk up Whipple Street 50-60 years ago, you wonder where the heck he came from. Now they live right with you, you know.

MM: It was all Swedes?

RB: It was all Swedes down here. We knew all our neighbors, now we don't know any of them.

NB: Every house. Now I don't even know who is a couple of houses over.

RB: It has changed so.

MM: Did any of the general customs change during the war? did you notice any, did people play more sports or lses sports. Or in general in the neighborhood did people go out more, did they stay home more?

RB: I think they stayed home more. I think so.

MM: What did you think about the Germans? How did you think about the Germans?

NB: We hated them..

RB: We hated them. Yeah.

MM: And the same for the Japanese? Or was it different?

NB: Yeah, no it was the same for the Japanese.

RB: The same. We don't hate them today. But at that time, we did.

MM: Do you think that living in the village had a special meaning back then as opposed, or during the war. did living in the village have a special meaning during the war?

RB: I think so. I think so. More so than now. Don't you think norm?

NB: You knew everybody.

RB: You knew everybody.

NB: Its changed completely

RB: Today you don't know anybody.

MM: Did you notice right before the war and then directly after the war did you notice any different groups coming into o the village?

RB: Oh yeah. It was after the war, that's when all the blacks started to come, don't you think norm?

NB: No, that wasn't right after the war. I think you started changing, there was Irish coming in, there was polish coming in. they all worked in, in the wire mill and (unintelligible). When my grandfather worked in the mill and father worked in the mill, the whole village was Swedes and they all worked in the wire mill. Greendale and the Swedes up there worked at Norton company.

RB: Yeah.

NB: And then, when the wire mills started down there, Johnson steel and wire, I was about 16 years old when they started. Then you had polish people, cause polish are steel workers, wire workers and you had Irish and you had French. Now the village is just one big mixture of everything.

RB: Everything.

NB: We have quite a few black people come to our church now. If some of the old Swedes could come back to life, and saw that.

RB: Oh I know, wonderful, wonderful people.

NB: They really are. One of them is a bishop over in Africa, he's studying over here, so he goes to our church when he is over here with his family.

MM: During the war did you think of yourselves as American or did you think of yourself as a villager? How, if you had to describe yourself, how would you describe yourself?

NB: American

RB: As an American I would say, right?

NB: American villager

RB: American villager, yeah.

MM: Did you notice that your family life changed a lot, from before when your husband left and then we he came back? Or did it just go back to normal?

RB: It went back to normal again. We were lucky.

MM: Did you go to the movies at all?

RB: No. we couldn't afford it.

MM: Did you find it difficult to readjust to the war being over? Or just happy?

NB: It was a relief.

RB: It sure was. It was a relief, the boys came home to work.

MM: How did you find out that the war had ended?

RB: It must have been the radio, you know?

NB: I was in Jacksonville Florida when the war ended.

MM: Did you celebrate somehow?

RB: Oh we probably had a family dinner or something like that, you know. I those days we didn't do things like we do today. I imagine we had a nice family dinner.

MM: What did your parents do during the war?

NB: Your father worked at Johnson Steele.

RB: My mother, was a big worker. She used to go down to the salvation army and roll bandages. In fact her, picture was in the paper. I have pictures of her. Yeah, she did that. Its funny that we didn't do that. But we had children.

NB: She was very active in the salvation army.

RB: Yeah.

MM: And did you have any other brothers or sisters besides Mr. Steel?

RB: No, I just had a brother. And he had no brothers or sisters. He was an only child.

MM: Did you worry a lot about your brother?

RB: Oh yes.

NB: He was in the war, one of the islands over there. A tank driver. He saw a lot of action.

MM: Besides the money aspect was there any other sacrifices that you had to make? Was there anything that you had planned to do before the war started that you weren't able to do once the war started?

RB: No, we always wanted our own home. But we couldn't even think of that until he came home. In fact we didn't even have a car, did we Norm?

NB: No, I sold my car before I went in the service.

RB: We had to work to get a car first. Then he got an old studebeger, remember that?

NB: I had that before I went in the service, that's the one I had. I sold that to somebody. When I got home, I don't know what I had. I got a nash or something.

MM: Do you think that the economy was helped or hurt by the war? In the village?

RB: Oh, I imagine it was hurt.

NB: Oh sure.

RB: I imagine.

MM: So you and your friends couldn't buy everything you wanted to buy?

RB: Oh no. oh no.

MM: Did you have to deal with rations?

RB: Oh yes. Ration stamps? Oh sure.

NB: Yeah, yeah.

MM: What kind of items were rationed?

RB: All the food. Food rations. Yeah, that's right too, I forgot about that, yeah.

MM: How did you deal with that?

RB: Very good. Cause I was alone, you know.

MM: Did you, ahm, did you notice any, any unpatriotic activities in the village during the war? was there anyone against it that you knew of?

RB: No, no.

MM: Did you find it difficult at all because Sweden was neutral during the war? Did you…

RB: I didn't even think about it. Sweden? I didn't think about Sweden at that time. My father was born here. My mother was born in Sweden, but she came over when she was how old, 14. something like that, huh?

NB: She was born in Denmark wasn't she??

RB: Huh?

NB: You mother was born in Denmark.

RB: No Norway, she lived in Sweden. So I didn't think about Sweden at that time.

MM: It didn't bother you at all?

RB: No, no.

MM: Did anyone in the village talk about that, or?

RB: No, I don't think so.

MM: Anything else that you would like to tell me about your life in the village, or how you dealt with the war, how your life changed between before the war and then after the war?

RB: Gee, I don't know Norm, do you?

NB: No, I don't think there was much. Of course before the war you could buy stuff that you wanted, and we had a car, and then the gas rationing came and you couldn't you didn't have enough gas to go on any trips or anything.

RB: Yeah, you couldn't go anyplace because you couldn't get the gas, you know.

NB: Food rationing that didn't seem to bother us too much. We had enough.

RB: Food rationing wasn't really that bad. Gasoline was.

NB: I think the gas rationing was the worst.

RB: That was the worst.

NB: For us. You just had enough gas to go back and forth to work, no that's all. And I could walk to work, so I didn't get much gas.

MM: And then once the war ended, everything was ok again, or...

RB: Everything was fine.

MM: Did it happen quickly, or did it slowly go back to normal?

RB: I think it took a while, you know, yeah, it took a while.

MM: Did the Swedes celebrate at all when the boys came home or was the Village more of a quiet town?

NB: No it was more quiet

RB: The village was more quiet.

NB: If there was any, see, god there was 5 or 6 churches in the village in just a small area. If you wanted to celebrate or anything, it was done in the churches?

MM: So there'd be a special mass or a dinner or how would church celebrate it?

RB: A service.

NB: That's when we got the catholic church.

RB: The catholic church came in after…the American Legion Hall and they bought that from the us. That was after the war. god, we didn't want a catholic church in Quinsigamond village with all the Swedes I'll tell you, there was a lot of mad people, for a while.

NB: I was on the committee to see the church to the American legion hall, and all the mad people. Cause today its changed. They are all one, now the catholic church the meth church all have services together. Its one big happy family.

RB: We used to have fun going to the legion, there was a lot of parties over the legion.

NB: Yeah, the legion hall

MM: Dancing?

RB: Yeah, stuff like that. Normal was, weren't you the…

NB: I was the commander

RB: He was the commander for a couple years. That was the only fun we had, going down there

MM: Did the legion do anything specifically to support the war?

RB: Oh I imagine they did.

NB: When the war started the only members of the legion, the American legion was WWI veterans, then when the WWII veterans came home, then we all joined and made them mad cause we took over.

RB: But that where they had the fun Norm, the American legion. I really don't think the churches celebrated too much.

NB: No they didn't, there were church services, prayer services and stuff like that. Cause I didn't get home until the war ended in the summer and I didn't get home until February the following year, so.

MM: You said you thought my questions were odd. Were there any questions that you were more expecting?

RB: No I hadn't thought of it, I should have spoken to my sister in law to find out what you were talking about. She said that it was very interesting, that's all. I couldn't imagine what you could be asking us.

NB: We had an interview with a professor from…

RB: Assumption

NB: Assumption college and two other fellows about the Swedish population in the village, what they did and how they started over here. You see when the village was started, it was the Irish that settled. They were building the Blackstone canal. Then steel mill started up and the all the Swedes moved in and the Irish faded out, cause the canal was all built. The Irish weren't steel workers, they were more or less digging trenches and stuff like that you know making canals.

MM: Well, thank you very much…Is there anything else you would like to tell me about the village before, during, after the war, anything else that sticks out in your mind, a particular event maybe?

RB: There must have been a lot of events, but you know, I don't remember, I just don't remember.

NB: When the war first started this was a, my mother in law and father in law lived in the house right below us, this was a farm. This is all their farm land, five and half acres of farm land her father worked. Then he went down Johnson steel and he sold all this land and the land across the way here. Holy cross owns all this across the street from us.

RB: They own all the land across the street. We just wonder if some day they will be building something over here too.

NB: They have to build a parking lot to get the cars across the street over here…