Interview with Penny Copeland
Interview by Jon Favreau
The Copeland Home, Whipple St., Worcester, MA
October 10, 2002

Penny Copeland (PC): When was I was a little kid the things I remember, we had two dairies in the village, we had Anderson Brothers on Eckman St and Victoria Gerry on Victoria Ave, and as little kids we use to go over there and get milk and then we had three doctors in the village--which you know we no longer have doctors--and we had two bars as hangouts. One was Cacasinas, and the other was Archies, and they made home made ice cream which was a big hit in the village and then out front they have steps and the men in the village would meet and sit out there as kind of a hang out spot. We had a five and ten, two drugs stores, a tailor, a shoe cobbler, we had a nice jewelrey store, we had a diner, and a bakery, a barber shop, a hairdressisng place, and lots of groceries stores. I bet we had nine grocery stores then on the side streets we had little markets. We had an oil company and we even had a bowling alley.

JF Favreau (JF): Oh really?

PC: I was never allowed to go over there

JF: Why not?

PC: I don’t know my father just said “you don’t go over there.”

JF: Now did you guys go, um, when you were growing up or even when you became an adult, was the village self contained or did you ever go into Worcester or White City or anything like that for entertainment?

MC: Yeah we’d go down to White City, I used to go down to White City once in awhile. Every memorial day we’d have relatives come in and go to the cemetery and we’d have a carnival we’d have a lot of things going on in the village—we even had a carnival down in the square…

JF: So the village was pretty self-contained.

MC: Yeah, yeah. We had a florist which we still have, and we had a hardware store, and then we had the American Steel and Wire Co. and Johnson Steel and Wire and they were very busy.

JF: Now did you or anyone you were related to work…

MC: Oh yeah, my father worked at American Steel.

JF: So what did years would he have been working there?

MC: Oh gee I don’t remember…he came from Sweden and he went to work real young.

JF: Now how old were you when the war started?

MC: Let’s see I was born in ’34, and it was over in ’43 right? Cuz I can remember we had a big thing going on in the village at the end of the war, a big bonfire, and I kept wanting to go back and see it (laughter). I wouldn’t want to go to bed till it was all over, till the celebration was all over…and quite a few of our boys in the village, a couple of them got killed…and there was quite a funeral in the village….

JF: Did your father serve?

MC: No, but I had two cousins in the service. In fact one of them ended up knowing John Kennedy, he fought in the service with him. And then we had a Wicket’s Meathouse. It was wonderful, we use to go there to get all our meats, they had hot dogs, they had everything. It was wonderful, and almost everyone went there. And then we had a R.O.G.G. hall, which the building is still on Eckman St., and we had dances there, it had showers, people used the space to rent out and use showers, and have parties. And of course we had the library, which we miss, and that was our hang out during junior high. We’d hang out there and, um, it was just…you could go down the hill and go walking and find everything you need. You know it was really….We had greenwood park which was always nice…and I guess that’s still there, but…..and fireworks, we even had fireworks in the village, it was…

JF: A lot going on, huh?

MC: Yeah, very nice place to work and live.

JF: Now, what are some of the first things you think about when you remember WWII? I know you must have been only 10…

MC: Yeah I was young but I remember my cousins being away. We had to go to Newport, Rhode Island to see my cousins in the Navy…and I remember the long ride…[laughter]

JF: [laughter]

MC: And then they’d come home you know and everyone would get together when they came home, and then I remember when one of the boys in the village got killed and that was a big thing in the village and we had a memorial that we put up in the square down here. And I remember that when that went in. And, oh, we had this little place where Greenwood goes one way and Millbury Rd the other way where we had Hilga’s five and ten and that was uh…its just that everybody knew everybody and it was just great, it was just…

JF: So uh, do you remember any sense of uh, why we were fighting the war? I mean I know you were young….

MC: Oh yeah, oh yeah. I remember being afraid to have the radio on. We had the wardens coming out and we had the blackouts. I mean I was petrified, I was very young but I was remember I was scared.

JF: Did you ever ask your parents what’s going on or what’s the war about or….

MC: Oh, well they just said that we have to protect ourselves cuz there’s enemies out there and we’re hoping they’re not gonna come here but we have to be prepared.

JF: Be prepared…So do you remember listening to the news?

MC: Oh yeah, the radio would be on, and my grandmother would say “President Roosevelt, he’s the best man!” She just loved him, she really liked him.

JF: What did people in the village when they talked about the war a lot, how did they remember what the news coverage was like about the war, did you talk with your grandmother about President Roosevelt?

MC: Oh yeah, well they either liked him or they didn’t, but my grandmother she was really for him.

JF: Did she say why?

MC: I don’t know she just took a liking too him. Well, I think the voice got her--she really liked his voice so she’d keep listening to him and she just liked what he said so she thought he was for the people. Yeah, she thought he was for the people.

JF: Now, when you heard the news coverage was there a real sense of who the enemy was or…

MC: Well, I had a cousin and he went to Germany, and in fact he came back with two glasses, and there was an “E” etched on them, and he claimed that they found them in the hideaway place Hitler had been and that they’d been his friend Eva’s.

JF: Oh really?

MC: Now I didn’t get one but my aunts did. He gave each one of my two aunts them

JF: Did you guys have a lot of patriotic designs, or did you hang stuff up, or flags or…

MC: Oh yeah, yeah lots of flags, flags hung up. Flags in every window. Like I said there was a bonfire in the village and everything.

JF: Now, do you remember when Pearl Harbor was attacked?

MC: Yeah.

JF: Was that a day that, in retrospect, sticks out in your memory?

MC: Well, because I got scared when I heard about it.

JF: How did everyone else in the village react?

MC: Oh, they were shocked.

JF: So what was that like?

MC: Well everyone was like “my gosh how sneaky!” How sneaky they were! Then we all decided we just had to be ready for anything—like today, like what’s going on today—we’re all nervous!

JF: Do you think that’s similar to today, was there just a general feeling of fear about being attacked?

MC: Oh yeah, oh yeah, exactly.

JF: Now when you heard the news coverage, and you heard President Roosevelt talking, was that more of a sense of worrying about being aattacked or was there a lot of talk about trying to rid the world of Hitler, or…..

MC: Well I remember I was scared and then my mother and father tried to tell me that we had been attacked but that the President was doing a good job so not to be worried.

JF: So did you just…now was school real different during the war?

MC: Well we talked about the war a lot.

JF: What were some of the things you talked about?

MC: Well they’d ask questions about if any of us who had families who were off fighting and they’d talk about somebody who didn’t come back or somebody who they were wondering if they were alive or not….and we had the bracelets and wore the bracelets for the MRA’s in the village.

JF: Now, it seems like it’s a very close village the way you were describing it…

MC: Oh it was! We didn’t even lock our doors…I lived in a three decker and we didn’t even lock our doors, we went up and down stairs and I remember the hurricane in ’38 and everyone came on the middle floor together…everyone did everything for everybody else and we never had to worry.

JF: So when a serviceman didn’t come back I assume that affected the whole community?

MC: Oh yeah, oh yeah…very close knit, we knew everybody on our street…I mean I’ve always lived in the village, and people use to come in the village and just stay here from generation to generation

JF: There was a lot of Swedish immigrants obviously in the village. Do you remember any other ethnic groups around?

MC: Well it was quite strong because of American Steel. They came over and worked at the steel mill here…but as time went on more and more came….the village was Swedish, and the Irish and the Polish were up the hill away it just seems as though we were Swedish here in the village. I mean the church services were all in Swedish….

JF: Really? Interesting. Now, American Steel and Wire, did you say your father worked for American Steel and Wire?

MC: Yeah, he was a dye sinker. And I used to go down there and he’d be at the window and I’d go see him…and he had a brother that got killed by the hot rods…there were a lot of accidents there…

JF: Lot of accidents?

MC: Oh yeah.

JF: Did he like it in general? Did the workers ever get anxious with all the accidents?

MC: Well I think it improved as time when on…and then Johnson wire came in later.

JF: Was there a feeling that American Steel and Wire was a real presence in the village since they employed so many people?

MC: Oh yeah, well 3 ‘o’clock whistle would blow and everyone would come home.

JF: Let me think of what else I wanted to um…let’s see, ah, what were some of the biggest changes in your life or your family life during the war?

MC: Well I had two cousins who both came home. I remember one in the village who got killed, and it was very sad because his mother was very sad because he couldn’t come home to his wife and child.

JF: Now, do you see any difference in how you remember the war vs. how the war is portrayed on TV today and in movies?

MC: Oh well you see so much more, I mean we couldn’t see what was going on over there…

JF: Yeah, so was your sense of the war back then limited to…

MC: The radio, and sometimes the newspaper, and that was it.

JF: Did you belong, or your family belong, to any civic groups or organizations during the war? Or was there anything?

MC: I don’t know, I can’t remember. I think my father was part of the Swedish club but I don’t think it had anything to do with the war or politics. There was a politican on this street, there were a lot of politicians in the village.

JF: Did they pretty much support President Roosevelt?

MC: Well, I don’t know but they were the ones who were the wardens. And that scared me the most when we had to put all the lights out.

JF: Now when did you have to put all the lights out?

MC: Well, in case we got attacked. And then the wardens would walk around in the dark with flashlights and it’d be like a preparation in case of an attack.

JF: How often?

MC: I don’t remember how often but I didn’t like it at all. And my mother would leave the radio on—that tiny little light in the radio on and I’d tell her we couldn’t have that—that’s how scared I was!

JF: That’s funny.

MC: Yeah, and I’d just say we can’t have the radio on and my mother would say “Yes, we need it on to hear what’s going on or if we’re getting attacked.” Cuz as a little kid I would think “Oh, the enemies can see the light.”

JF: Pretty scary. What about your church? Was there um, did you go to church a lot with your family or was there any kind of talk about the war during the services or…

MC: Well, I presume so, but I was kind of young so I remember Sunday school more than church service, but I’m sure they did. My father couldn’t go in the service because my mother had been ill so he couldn’t go cuz they wouldn’t let him….

JF: Well he must have had a lot of his friends go away…or was he older…..

MC: Well he was older..but like I said his sister’s kids went over…..

JF: Did your mother work?

MC: Well years ago she worked--she drove--for the Catholic Free Press. They were laughing that she got her license and off she went on these roads all by herself. And they use to talk about the Depression a lot cuz my father had a job but a lot didn’t. And he used to go shopping and he’d walk and go 3 miles to buy a roast and then walk back cuz gas was rationed and a lot of things were rationed. We even had to cut trees down and take doors down for wood to have a fire, to have heat, and that’s how bad it was.

JF: During the depression…

MC: Yeah, they talked about the Depression a lot. I came along a few years later but they were still talking about it and a lot of them changed their ways of life after that because they never wanted to be left with no money again.

JF: During the war did you notice if there was a real pickup in the economy?

MC: No, I remember my mother mixing that margarine it was horrible. She’d take that organge capsule and mix it with lard and mix it up and that was our butter. And I do remember having stamps, the ration stamps….

JF: Was there a lot of rationing?

MC: Oh yeah, a lot of rationing in the village.

JF: Did your parents talk about the reason for rationing? Was it mostly cuz of the depression, the war, a little of both? Was there a sense of the need for sacrifice?

MC: Oh yeah, well I was complaining about that darn butter and my mother said “You better thank God you have this. And this is what we have to do now, because this is for our country. They know what’s best for us so we have to do this.” But oh I can still remember the taste, it was awful….

JF: Haha, I can imagine…it’s like that spray butter stuff they have now.

MC: Yeah, yeah, I remember the capsule and then she’d sit in her rocking chair and keep going and going until it looked like butter.

JF: It’s funny that that’s the stuff you remember from when you were young.

MC: My father had a car but couldn’t use it. He didn’t have the money for gas and things cuz it was rationed so much that he couldn’t use the car unless it was for something real important.

JF: Now did American Steel and Wire pretty much, did they pay everyone as well as they could? Or was there any….

MC: Well I don’t think my father ever…well.. he was a dye sinker but we were never rich believe me. And when I got married in ’55 he retired so another man wouldn’t get bumped who had a family. And you wouldn’t believe it--the year after that they revised everything and he would have made a lot more money had he stayed. I remember him saying “Boy, if I had stayed I wouldve been much better off”.
Oh, and they had an insurance policy and if you died on the premises you got $2,500. And as they were leaving one day a guy dropped dead right in front of my dad and him and another man brought him in and put him inside the gates so his wife could get the money….
And another thing he told me was about this man who wanted to get a promotion…and they asked him “Oh well right here it says you went to college” and he says “Oh yeah, I went to Holy Cross” and he says “You go to Holy Cross?” and he says “Yeah I go through there everyday on my way to work.” (Laughter)

JF: (Laughter).

MC: (Laughter), I thought you’d get a kick out of that.

JF: Well I wish I only had to walk through it’d be a lot easier than going to school there that’s for sure. Let’s see, you mentioned the bonfire, now what do you remember about D-Day?

MC: Oh yeah, I mean loads of people, I mean really….the Legion use to do a lot for the village…the American Legion was very active.

JF: Now was it a big celebration, what was it like?

MC: Well, like I said I was young and had to go to bed before it was all over.

JF: Now did you notice a big difference in your life and your family’s life after the war was over?

MC: Oh yeah…well everyone was happier and it was more relaxing and people were more daring cuz I don’t think anyone spent much money or anything during the war…

JF: Did people really start spending?

MC: Yeah, I use to remember my mother and father saying we could do things now and buy things now that we couldn’t have because after the Depression and then a war people were very careful about spending during the war….

JF: I can imagine….now did people pay less attention to the news after the war?

MC: Oh I think it much less…people would listen to the serials on the radio but not the news that much.

JF: Ok, I think I almost took care of everything here…let’s see…..so it seems like the village changed a lot since then, huh?

MC: Oh we had a wonderful time back then. We use to go out on the ice truck with the milkman, he’d let us go with him….everyone was so friendly and we’d play in the yard over there….today the kids don’t have half as much fun as we did, cuz they don’t use their imagination!