Interview with Wray Schelin
Interview by Kevin Higgins
Edward Buick Dealership, Worcester, MA
November 22, 2002
Kevin Higgins (KH): Testing. Testing. Testing.
KH: OK, this is our interview with Wray Schelin at Edward Buick in
Worcester. Wray, what is the first thing you think of when you think of
WWII?
Wray Schelin (WS): I think of a lot of things. Why were such things put
together with such a thing with the Japanese and the
Allies
everybody perished. For what? We're all friends now. It's
all past tense, you know. All that time, all that money, lives were lost
for what? Just a page in history?
KH: I know what you mean. What is your strongest memory of the war-what
jumps out at you when you think of it?
WS: Well I was on the AP141 attack transport carrying people back from
France to San Diego to Australia, from Australia to New Zealand, from
New Zealand to Sumatra, Sumatra up the Holy River up to Calcutta, down
to Sri Lanka-it's called the Salon. Over to aid in Arabia
KH: So you saw the world?
WS:
up to Suez city, across the Mediterranean and back to New York,
and back from New York over to France all the time. Almost transported
over 4,000 people.
KH: Wow. And how old
you were 20 years old
.
WS: Twenty years old and I was 24 and a half when I got married that
year and I've been married ever since.
KH: When did you get married
when you were 20.
WS: 1946-when I got out of the service. I was out in March. I got married
in July. We're still married
same woman, from College
Hill.
KH: That's great.
WS: You know where College Hill is?
KH: College Hill sure. Right by Holy Cross.
WS: College Hill sure, well that hill it's
. My wife used to walk
on top of that hill to South High School.
KH: Oh OK. Yeah sure. What was your family like? Did you have any
brothers or sisters?
WS: I had a brother who died in 1924 for a gas leak. We had gas light
in those years. My father and brother were in the little bedroom. And
someone, the chip went off or something and they died of asphyxiation
of gas.
KH: Oh no. That's horrible.
WS: 1924.
KH: That's horrible.
WS: Yeah. My mother was widowed at a very young age, so I was raised
like an orphan. I lived with my grandmother and grandfather who raised
nine children, and they took me on.
KH: Wow.
WS: They lived in a different era. They lived in the 1800s, know what
I mean? No washing machines
no driers. No nothing. The simple things
of life-I used box, cut everything up, killed chickens, can everything
up.
KH: When you were with your grandparents or with your mother, did
you experience any economic consequences because of the War? Were times
harder for you?
WS: Well I was over there
oh yes.
KH: In that year you were still in Worcester.
WS: Oh yes. People had no money because we were in a Depression state
in 1928-29. You didn't buy a plant in the windows, throw it out (did
not get the name). My grandfather was a worker for American
Steel & Wire Company, and they had a meager income. Even though they
raised nine children, they had just the basic things of life. But, the
ironic thing of everything, everyone was down and out, so they never knew
the difference. Everybody was the same category.
KH: So they stayed, everyone was down and out until the War started?
WS: You never go anywhere. It costs money to travel. You never go anywhere.
The travel car-that was the extent of travel.
KH: Wray, what were some of the biggest changes in your family life
during the War?
WS: Not much changed, except that I wrote home when I could write home.
You were always at sea and I can write you or at the APA Hall-you know
letters went there. But, not much changed. I couldn't
do nothing. I was at sea for 29 months-never got off the ship, except
at ports.
KH: Before you went to the War, you said your grandfather worked for
American Steel & Wire?
WS: Yes. 50 Years.
KH: He was still working at that point-when you went to War?
WS: No. He had retired. He was 81 years old-same as me-81.
KH: And how did the family support itself?
WS: By pension-American Steel pension.
KH: And did your grandmother work or your mother?
WS: No, nine children. No.
KH: Did your mother do anything?
WS: My mother worked at Filene's-the department store. In 1928, she was
hired to work there and the pay was very meager. I know she made a lot
of stuff because
. Instead of having lunch meat for sandwiches, my
grandmother had chickens, my mother had egg sandwiches that would last
her every day of the week for many many years-nothing else but egg sandwich.
No, there was nothing else. We never bought cold cuts. At the end of the
week, my grandmother allocates seven dollars me to go down to Ingstran's
store, to see the person Mr. Ingstran, and he opens the files and takes
the slip out. He says, "Your grandmother owes seven dollars for the
week now." This was the entire week's supply of food.
KH: Oh ok. So you have a tab there?
WS: Yeah a tab. Well everyone had a tab. They didn't use debit. They
had no money. You pay it on Saturday night. That's when they were allocated
the checks.
KH: Quinsigamond seems to have more of a traditional family environment
.
WS: When I lived in Quinsigamond
I was born there by Dr. Peter
Coldberg, five dollars for delivery
90% of the people were of Swedish,
Norwegian, Danish
and they all segregated together because they
had the language communication. These were all Greenhorns-the terminology.
Anybody who came across from the pond, geographically settled in where
the group was
you could communicate, like Belmont
Hill was Swedes who were in a different villa,
different sector see?
KH: Right.
WS: Yeah. That's why those Greenhorns all stuck together and they all
worked on the mill. You go into the mill to work at six o'clock in the
morning, the Greenhorns would be waiting outside at five o'clock in the
morning waiting for work. They had no time cards, you just took a number
and put it over there.
KH: Wow. OK. So, let's go into the War itself. How did you feel when
Pearl Harbor was attacked?
WS: I was very discouraged. My cousin was in the Navy at the time. His
name was Charles Addis. He lived in Quinsig, and his philosophy was that
the United States government and marines and navy would blow Japan off
the globe in two minutes for anything
. That was his philosophy.
He came out of the Navy
Charles Addis his name was
went to
work at Norton Company. And when that happened, December 7, 1942
that's when it happened
'41.
KH: How about D-Day? Do you remember D-Day?
WS: Yeah everybody was happy on D-Day. I was in India for D-Day?
KH: You were in India?
WS: Yeah. You have to have so many points to get back to States. I was
on the ship, up on the Holy River, Prince's Gap. And they said that well
those other points can get out when they get back, so I had to wait a
month to get back to States in New York. I got a ride to Seattle, Washington.
We separated there in Seattle, Washington. Stayed in a concentration camp
up there-that they used for the army, put the sailors up there. We tied
the ship up in port. And they were just the dry dock, moth ball fleet.
KH: So that's where you were when D-Day happened?
WS: No, no I was in India.
KH: You were in India. OK. But periodically you'd have to come back
to the States?
WS: Yeah. You'd have to come back to the States to be separated. So they
separated me in Seattle, Washington, after they dry-docked the ship and
moth balled it. I took the Great Northern from Seattle to Washington,
down to Baltimore and Boston. With no money, you never had no money. You
bought the flower point in the window
(indistinguishable).
No money. On the train, you had chits. On the train for lunch and everything,
Pullman-you had chits. (unclear)
KH: How did you think about the enemy-the German,
the Japanese?
WS: I never encountered the German people. I never encountered the Japanese
people. I was always on the ship. We always had convoys, you know. Convoys
from San Pedro to Australia. You were running with a group, ok?
KH: Yup.
WS: And, say a prayer to (indistinguishable) you ran over the
Tazmian Sea over to New Zealand, and then you'd pick them up and go up
to Sumatra, and from Sumatra up to, through the Indian Ocean up the Holy
River, to Calcutta.
KH: OK.
WS: Now we'd pick up troops there-4,000 troops. CBI-China-Burma-India.
And they'd been over there for many years and were all half-nuts. We had
padded cells on the ship. You'd put them in and lock them in because they
were half-nuts, and bring them back to States here.
KH: OK.
WS: Back again down to Singapore, down to Sri Lanka-they call it Salono.
You'd circumvent the globe, over to aid in Arabia, up through the Red
Sea, to Suez City, and then you you'd take a train to New York, separate
them-take them off the ship. We used to take guns and B-nuts and you'd
put them on the fan tail-that's the end of the ship-and throw them over
the side. Tons and tons of ammunition, everything. And the food we had
down in the galley, to feed 4,000 people a day, all over the side!
KH: Wow.
WS: Well they didn't want to take it into port, into New York. And in
New York, we'd load the cargo up again. Then we'd run to La Jar, France.
And in La Jar, France, we'd pick up those from the battle zone in Germany,
bring them back. That's all we did was travel. Troop carrier
4,000
people.
KH: OK. What was your sense of why we were fighting back then? What
was the reason for going to War?
WS: I was a diplomat. I don't know. It was a misunderstanding. They say
that Germany wanted to conquer the world-that's their prerogative. OK.
And they would have conquered the world if we hadn't intervened over there.
KH: What about the Japanese?
WS: The Japanese are funny people. Yeah. You talk to Buddy Rudge up there
about Japanese did you?
KH: I think my friend did in the class. Yup.
WS: Yeah he killed about 250 men. Yeah he did. On the islands, all the
islands, they had tons and tons of islands down there that the Japanese
inhibited, OK?. They were part of the soil. You either burn them out or
kill them. They kill you at the drop of the hat. Life was expendable to
them.
KH: Has the sense of why we were fighting changed at all as you look
back on it now or did you look at things the same way when the War started?
WS: The older you get, you get mellow. You get a little flaky, in other
words. You have a different idea of life. What the hell, what are you
fighting for? You fight, you fight, you lose the battle.
KH: That's true. So when we talk about that one year period that you're
still in Worcester, before you went, because you went into the Army in
1942, is that right?
WS: Uh huh.
KH: Talking about that one year period that you were in Worcester
.
WS: One year
I was born in Worcester.
KH: You were born in Worcester.
WS: I was born in Quinsig Village.
KH: Quinsig Village, right. But between 1941, when the War started,
and 1942, you were in Worcester for one year?
WS: Oh yeah, I've always resided in Worcester.
KH: OK. During that period, how distant was the War from you? Did
they have any war-related activities
.
WS: Oh, everything they had was about War. War bonds
and this and that, the hill of Silasis
KH: What's that? The hill of
.
WS: Oh, what the hell is that
emperor
emperor
Hirohiti
"Down with Hirohiti" and all that. Very, very oriental war.
People hated Japan. The Japanese
hated them.
They were a very shady people. Life was expendable to them. They didn't
care. You know they
take those planes they come by, fly right into
you.
KH: The kamikaze?
WS: Kamikaze. Die for the emperor. There you go. Right.
KH: Did you go to any political rallies?
WS: No. I've never been politically oriented.
KH: Did you feel that there was a role for you as an individual to
play, living in Worcester? Were there certain things that you did, sacrifices
you made?
WS: Uh
I think you're born to do certain things. Yup.
KH: Did you notice anything in the Village itself
people making
sacrifices?
WS: Well, I mean everything was rationed.
KH: Was that tough?
WS: You had coupons.
KH: You had coupons?
WS: Yeah, food coupons, yeah. You had cash food coupons. You could buy
this, buy that or buy this and buy that. Everything, gasoline
was rationed.
KH: Gasoline.
WS: Yeah, you'd only get so many gallons a week.
KH: There weren't that many cars though, right? They stopped making
cars during the War I think.
WS: Oh, we didn't make cars for a long time. We stopped making cars
when did we stop? They made tanks and they made
jeeps. Everything
pertained to the Army.
KH: Did you have any patriotic posters or decorations
around the house?
WS: I imagine so. We had a poster up, "Kill the
Japanese," you know.
KH: OK. Were you in high school right before the War started?
WS: I was in trade school.
KH: You were in trade school?
WS: Worcester Trade School, yeah.
KH: OK. Where's that?
WS: That's up
well up it's got a new name now-Worcester Industrial
Tech. It's up there. Yeah.
KH: Did you learn anything about the War in school?
WS: No. They were more interested in trying to teach you.
KH: Yeah. What was the news coverage like during the War?
WS: Everything was predicated on the German front or the Japanese front.
KH: Worcester Telegram and Gazette?
WS: Worcester Telegram and Gazette. Yeah, they had
good distribution then. We got the Saturday Evening Post too. They used
to be on Foster St., but they fazed out because Telegram and Gazette dominated
everything you know? It was owned by Mr. Stoddard.
KH: Mr. Stoddard?
WS: Stoddard yeah. Another WASP.
KH: Did you listen to the radio a lot during
this time?
WS: Yes. Well, sure. 1946-we had a seven inch television. We got married
in '47. We had a 12 inch magnifier. That's when "Texaco" show
was on there. Milton Berle was on there. Everything was live. They had
no live like they do ad-lib today.
KH: What were your opinions of F.D.R. and the
government in general?
WS: F.D.R.? He was a good man. He was just a person that had to be there,
OK? And Truman superceded him. And Truman was a, I think the highest he
attained was a sargeant or something like that. He was bossing five star
generals around.
[Wray briefly talks to co-worker].
WS: Now Harry Truman
he had a lot of guts.
KH: Yeah, I think so too.
WS: He brought McArthur back from Korea. McArthur wanted to annihilate
Korea. He pulled him back and fired him on Midway. Literally fired him!
KH: I remember reading about that.
WS: Yeah. He's a five star general, know what I mean?
KH: Yeah. Do you see any difference in the way you remember the War
and the way it is portrayed in movies?
WS: I don't really like movies. Movies accentuate a lot of things. That's
not how it is.
KH: Do you remember the movies that came out right after the war?
Like, "The Green Berets"?
WS: No
no. I used to go to movies in India.
KH: In India! Wow.
WS: Everybody went
and when you get up, everybody had to sing "God
Save the King," like "My country tis of thee
". (italics)
All of that was there. And you stood up in honor of King George, who was
kind of England. They had allegiance
India was owned by England.
KH: Right.
WS: Even the monetary system was all predicated on the
KH: English currency.
WS: Yeah. They had rubles and everything else.
KH: What kinds of things did you do before the War for fun? What kinds
of things did you do in Worcester for fun
before the War?
WS: Well
up to Greenwood Park and played
ball. One ball, one bat and one glove.
KH: That's all you needed.
WS: That's all I had, you know.
KH: Did you go into downtown Worcester or White
City?
WS: Very seldom. I had no occasion to go up there, you know? No occasion
to go to Worcester center. What the hell. Never went down to White City,
never had no money to spend to go down there.
KH: Yeah.
WS: The rides were probably five cents or ten cents but
that was
a long way from Quinsig you know. You had to take
a trolley car down.
KH: That's true.
WS: Trolley car went up Greenwood Street then circumvented
and down, right down here on Shrewsbury St., right
down at the bottom to White City
no not White
City Park
Lincoln Park.
KH: Lincoln Park, OK. Let's talk about the trolleys a little bit.
WS: OK, I loved the trolleys.
KH: They were there from the time you were born?
WS: Oh yes
before that.
KH: And they
obviously they're no longer here
when did
they
.
WS: Oh God
they fazed out a long time ago but I'd like to see the
trolleys come back because they're more efficient I think.
KH: I think so. Yeah.
WS: Of course, you get on a trolley down in Quinsig,
you can go up to the Summit, or you can go to Auburn, you can go anywhere
you want for ten cents. Just
what you do is you get a transfer up
at City Hall, and you have a transfer.
KH: Right. So you used them a lot?
WS: When I went to school, when I went to Worcester
Boy's Trade, I had the trolley car. It took twenty five minutes a week,
both ways. No lunch
egg sandwich again for lunch.
KH: Did you belong to any social organizations during the War?
WS: No. No.
KH: There was a Boy's Club I think on Ionic
Ave....
WS: Yes.
KH: Did you go to that?
WS: No, I never went there. We had an assembly
hall down at American Steel where if you had a basketball you could play.
KH: Oh OK. Cause your grandfather worked there, so you had access
to it?
WS: Yeah. Everything predicated around the wire mill, around the assembly
hall. Movies on Saturday morning there. Everybody
got there, like a thousand smells, know what I mean? Everybody stunk.
Nobody knew it because everybody stunk with them. OK? And watched the
movies. You know flickers
not great movies.
KH: So everyone
anyone who worked for American Steel, their
family had access to all these kinds of things?
WS: Yeah. Yeah, we had every party
and my grandfather, grandmother
married many man years ago... fifty years we had a big party there. All
the beer was kept in a wash bucket-a big bucket. They had no refrigeration
then. And the sandwiches
rough and tumble sandwiches
slice
of bread and throw it on, throw the meat there.
KH: That's pretty nice. Did your grandfather like American
Steel and Wire-the company?
WS: He worked there fifty years. Never late in fifty years. I've still
got the clipping from him: "Alexander Robert Wray. He worked for
American Steel Fifty Years-Never late." No time was he late. He had
to work with nine kids!
KH: Right.
WS: Nine children I should say. "Kids" are for *
KH: Do you have any religious affiliation?
WS: Yes, I have the Episcopal Church. Right
down on Southbridge Street down there. I was
married there.
KH: What's the name of that Church?
WS: St. Matthew's Episcopal Church.
KH: St. Matthew's Episcopal. And what was your parish when you were
growing up in Quinsigamond?
WS: Huh?
KH: What was your parish when you were growing up in Quinsigmond?
(Wray's co-worker briefly talks to Wray)
WS: Uh
I went to the Congregational Church
because everyone went to Congregational Church. And consequently, all
my
friends who went there
they're all dead now.
KH: Where is the Congregational Church?
WS: Right down
Quinsig
the big white, white beautiful church.
It was built many, many, many years ago. And I was confirmed there in
1935. And ninety percent of the people I was confirmed with
I went
down to a reunion last June
only three showed up, the rest were
all dead.
KH: Oh geez.
WS: They're gone!
KH: That's too bad.
WS: I've got pictures of them, pictures of them, oh sure.
KH: Was there any change in your faith life once the War started?
Did they start talking about the War after 1941-prayers and prayer ceremonies?
WS: Oh yeah, everything was prayers. We still have prayers today over
there. We have prayers for the young boys that are in service, OK? And
the people who are wounded, people that are sick, and you know
.
As a matter of fact, there's a girl that's in the choir, who name is Sonia
Irving. She sings up at Holy Cross in the choir.
KH: Oh OK.
WS: And her husband, she's a blonde woman, her husband is the organist.
He's the music director for Worcester Academy.
KH: Was there more of an attendance at Church
once the War started?
WS: Oh yeah. Everybody prayed on a weekly basis. Now, I've got to confess,
not that many anymore. There's no rhyme or reason but the young people
they don't go.
KH: Were there any prayer services because of the War?
WS: Yes. All pertain about the boys in the service, and the girls in
the service, you know. Probably 40% of the whole service itself predicated
around the war**. It wasn't very religious but it was really down to earth
you know.
KH: Was the parish in support of the War?
WS: Yeah. Yeah they supported it sure, what the heck, yeah. The man that
built that Church owned all those mills there. Whittall
mills.
KH: What was his name?
WS: Matthew Whittall.
KH: Matthew Whittall. OK.
WS: Now Whittall Square is there-all those stores there. He had a big
palatial palace there. Now he offered to give it to Holy
Cross and raze it as long as they built a building up there and put "Matthew
Whittall" on the building, and they wouldn't do it, so he sold it
and they took it down. And he had another mansion down in Millbury, down
on Shrewsbury
still there!
KH: Oh Whittall mansion. Yeah, I know where that is. Sure.
WS: These people are multi-millionaires in the 1800s!
KH: Yeah.
WS: They found had to weave rugs and design a rug-Whittal
rugs. Everybody in South Worcester worked for Whittal's. My wife worked
there for a little while.
KH: Did Sweden's neutral position during the
War
.
WS: Huh?
KH: Did Sweden's neutral position during the War, did the fact that
Sweden was neutral, did that change the way people looked at people living
in Quinsigamond?
WS: They're still the same way. They're still neutral. They weren't in
a war for 500 years. They're all lovers.
KH: Did the fact that Sweden was neutral when America entered the
War. Did that influence the way people thought about people in Quinsig?
WS: No. No. They were on the same plateau as the Swiss people. They didn't
believe in engaging in War. You know, or Norway or Denmark-they're all
neutral countries.
KH: Uh huh. So it wasn't a big deal that the Swedes were kind of indifferent
to it?
WS: No. No. The English were warmongers.
KH: The English were warmongers?
WS: Yes. I saw a documentary film one time on television. One battle
they lost 28,000 people against the archers-the Saxons and the Moors.
And France has been warmongers for years too. And Germany. Germany
sought to be the best race in the world. That's their philosophy.
KH: How did you find out the War had ended?
WS: I was on the ship. I was on the AP141, and I was in India when it
ended. Everybody was shooting guns and you know. And the Hindus, the Hindus
thought you were crazy. What do they have? They have Hindus and
.
KH: Muslims.
WS: Muslims has a little bow in his hair. He believes he has a bow in
his hair. He believes in reincarnation. If he gets to die, Allah will
pick him up by that thing and bring him up to Heaven.
KH: Yeah.
WS: I remember them burning gas in India. Watch them burn bodies. What
the hell, Calcutta
sanitary condition
every morning they pick
up all the dead, throw them on the burning gas. They dip them in the Holy
River, that's a tributary of the Ganges, then put them on the burner and
burn them. 35 cents.
KH: What was life like once you came back to Worcester? You got married.
WS: Yeah I got married. I've been married ever since. It's the same.
KH: And you lived in Worceseter. Did you benefit from the G.I.
loan?
WS: No. I went to work. We came out of the service, we had a 51-20. You
go twenty weeks, and $51 a month if you want to take it. And I never took
it. I never took a dime. I went to work. I never got a cent. $200 from
the state of Massachusetts and $100 from the city of Worcester. I got
married for $300 bucks. That's the extent. I went to Ausserby, New Hampshire
for my honeymoon. There's nothing up there. There's nothing but woods.
Yup. 1946. My wife said, "This is beautiful!" What a dump!
(Wray jokes around with his friend at work)
KH: Is there anything you think is important that we haven't talked
about today?
WS: I think you pretty much covered it. Anything else you think of, you
can call me, and I'll give you a logical answer.
KH: OK. Yeah. I think we've run the gamut.
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