George White (GW): And there was a big mansion over by Rotmans, the Whitall Mansion, which doesn’t exist today because economics are different, wages are different, taxes are different—taxes just about put a lot of people back on the level of the average working man…in other words, when taxes came in in 1913, they had to pay taxes, prior to that the individual didn’t have to pay taxes and if he had his mill he could take wahtever he wanted out of there in cash and not pay a tax on it—the mill would pay a tax on what was left ya know? And consequently, since 1913 that flamboyant way of life changed. Whiddal’s sons used to have planes out in Grafton, there was an airport out there called Whiddal field, and his son Jimmy Whiddal use to have his plane flying over here all the time.

Jon Favreau (JF): Huh. So he owned American Steel and Wire?

GW: No no no. He only owned the mill—where Rotman’s is—that was Whitall’s carpet mill. No Whiddal had nothing to do with American Steel and Wire.

JF: Were a lot of people employed at the carpet mill during WWII?

GW: Oh yeah hundreds. A lot of people were employed at the carpet mill—it was big business. They used to send men over to Europe to buy wool, and they’d ship their carpets all over the world. The American Steel and Wire central works is over here.

JF: What went on in centralworks?

GW: They made nails. That’s where they made nails. And down at the southworks they’d make cable. All kinds of cable.

JF: Now did a lot of people enjoy working for American Steel and Wire? Did they think it was a pretty good employer?

GW: Ohhhh yes. They’re wages were tops.

JF: They’re wages were tops?

GW: Oh yeah, in this city for industry….uh, they’re wages were excellent.

JF: What did it take to get a job there? Was it pretty competitive?

GW: Uh, generally uh….over here they had a park for the children and sons and daughters of the workers—these mills were good to their people. Now what did you ask me?

JF: Was it pretty competitive to try and get a job? Were there enough jobs for everyone?

GW: Uh, I don’t think it was too competitive. But, ah, children succeeded their parents down there. I think generally they were given prefernece.

JF: Did a lot more women start working in the American Steel and Wire when the war started?

GW: Yeah, some worked down there, they were drawing wire. Some of them, ya know, drew certain measurements of wire. They didn’t draw the big cables, but the smaller wire they did.

JF: So during WWII, what years were you in the reserves?

GW: Well I was in the Army in WWII from 42-46.

JF: Did you stay here or did you go over?

GW: No, I was in the intelligence I stayed here.

JF: Where were you located here?

GW: I was located mostly in Springfield Mass, and I used to cover Western Mass and Vermont up to the Canadian border. And then I was in the reserves from 46-54. And the Army was sort of interfering with my business.

JF: What was your business?

GW: Oh I was a CPA I had my own firm.

JF: So you had the firm back in the early 40s before you joined the Army?

GW: No I established the firm after the war, in 1951. I’d worked for another firm up until then then I established my firm and I closed the door in 1988.

JF: Whoa, that’s a long time.

GW: Yeah it was.

JF: Was it located in Worcester?

GW: Oh yeah, 311 Main St. for 18 years and then the Slater building, 390 main st. for 19 years. They’re used to be houses in here, there was a street and there used to be houses, and then all these houses were torn down to make room for the expressway to come through….

JF: So what did you think of economic times during the war? Was it tougher for people, or did people feel they were coming out of the depression? Were they spending more?

GW: Oh very definitely…the war brought them out of the depression, and they started to enjoy a prosperity that they hadn’t seen for years.

JF: Did prosperity start during the war or when it ended?

GW: Oh no it started during the war….now there were houses all in here but they were torn down for the new road that’s coming through here…the new road that’s gonna connect with the expressway…there were all beautiful buildings up here and now they’re outta here…..did you ever hear of Tom Dowd?

JF: No.

GW: He used to be traveling secretary with the Red Sox, and I”ll tell you where he lived. He lived right in here, right in this house over here.

JF: Oh really? When was he traveling secretary?

GW: Oh he was secretary from until the late 40s until he died in, I’d say the 70s. There were houses all in here…houses all in here…and they’re all torn down.

JF: When were they torn down?

GW: Last year. Last year or the year before, all within two years. And now we’ll be going into the village. This is the start of the village once we get over the railroad tracks here. This is all part of the old Southworks, the American Steel and Wire. Of cousre the whole mill has been torn down. And uh, American Steel and Wire had a theatre right here, years ago.

JF: Their own theatre?

GW: Oh yeah. They used to have a Christmas Party for the kids of the men that worked there.

JF: Did a lot of people go?

GW: Oh sure, in fact I used to be invited as a kid—by friends of mine whos father worked at the mill…and this is the school. The library, you see over here, that library was one of the—ya know way back Andrew Carnige of Carnigie Steel gave money, just to build libraries. I know that one over on Southbridge St., there’s a library there. And this building here, is one.

JF: Has it been there for awhile?

GW: Well it was a big deal ya know when they built the school. They didn’t have a right to tear that library down, in terms of the city accepting it from Carnigie. Yeah they didn’t have a right to tear that building down to extend the school—so they just decided that they’d attach it—and that way they didn’t disturb anything.

JF: Is the library part of the school?

GW: Yeah I don’t believe any longer it’s a public library. But I remember as a youngster I used to come down here and get books, because in grade school there was a set number of books we had to read during the summer.

JF: So you were mentioning about the theatre..what else did people do for entertainment in the village?

GW: Well we had a baseball team in the industrial league…this is the old firestation here…ah, you asked me what else did they do for entertainment? Well, American Steel had a baseball team in the industrial leage, which, you know, provided great entertainment—especially for the men who worked in the mill….and they had a park over here with a pool, as they did up by the centralworks…that’s the entertainment they provided for.

JF: So it sounds like American Steel and Wire did a lot for the village?

GW: Yes it did. American Steel and Wire treated their employees nicely. They were well paid, they had their vacation time. And then eventually they became unionized, ya know.

JF: Do you remember when they became unionized?

GW: Well I can’t give you the date on that.

JF: Did they put up a fight to unionize, or did American Steel and Wire not mind it?

GW: Uh, this goes back to Carnegie’s day ya know, Carniegie and Ford Motor. Carnegie fought to keep the union out of his steel mills, and Henry Ford did too to keep the union out of Ford Motor. They hired goons!

JF: I heard that.

GW: Yeah, goons! That was way back, but as the time, as history progressed, ya know, but the time they were ready to unionize here, it wasn’t Amercan Steel it was U.S. Steel which took over American Steel, which was Carnegie’s. And he worked his help pretty hard, and fought to keep the union out…ahmm…he didn’t wanna give up control of the mills, ya know what I mean? If you had the union in there, they’d start dictacting to him.

JF: But things were better with American Steel and Wire?

GW: Well at that time it was just the case of you had to go along with hit. The unions, the Afl and CIO merged and they became a very strong outfit and in most cases it was hopeless for these mills to buck them.

JF: Were they unionized during the war?

GW: Well I believe they were already unionized during the war, by the time the war came.

JF: Oh ok, that’s good.

GW: Now this is Greenwood St.

JF: So the store you worked at is just around here?

GW: I’ll show you just where it was….it was right here, on the corner of Greenwood and Millbury. And the church was next door—that was the Emmanuel Lutheran Church. And I remember when I worked at the A and P there was an old Swedish lady who ran a boardinghouse up there, and she’d come into the store and buy many of the things she needed to cook with….and there’s a market over there, a very big market—Anderson and Sundquist. And they really had the most of the trade in the village here. It was a Swedish population and they were Anderson and Sundquist and this was their store right here. But it’s different now, the entrance has moved to the front and all…but it was a beautiful market and a big market. And this was an automobile agency during the day, they used to sell Pontiacs. There was a Milk Company, Anderson Brothers, they had horses and whatnot I think over here. And see there’s a big apartment building block in there now. Oh yeah, oh yeah, this was quite a place for the people in this village. You know many of the people who lived in the village worked here, they’d work for Anderson brothers, or there was a steel mill up there Johnson Steel and Wire, and they worked there too.

JF: Not as many as American right?

GW: No, but Johnson was a good sized operation. When I worked at the A and P, they were really hustling at the time, a lot of people working there. Course they’re gone now….

JF: So how old were you when you worked at the A and P?

GW: I was 17.

JF: And then you went into the Army when you were….

GW: Well I went to Holy Cross after, and after Holy Cross I went to Boston University for two years and I got a masters degree in business administration in acccounting. And then, after the war, I went into public accounting, I worked for a firm downtown, and I ah, went to Northeastern University at nights taking CPA review courses, and then I passed the exam, and I worked for this firm for 6 years, and then I decided to open my own firm, which I did. Yeah.

JF: What did your parents do for work?

GW: My father was a policeman in Worcester. Yeah, my father was a policemen, he was a man of ordinary means, but he put me through Holy Cross and Boston University for which I’m very grateful….I gotta guy climbing up my back here, I better pull over and let him go by….eh, he wasn’t going to far was he…in a hurry I suppose….. Now this was a park for the children in the village…lot of children played here, and it was a nice park, and they had a superintendent here who was quite strict, but it turned out to be a nice park. There’s the baseball field there, and tennis courts over there, and down below is the swimming pool.

JF: It’s still here.

GW: Oh yeah, this was a nice park. You probably didn’t see it before…now let’s see I have to turn around here….

JF: So what did you think of FDR?

GW: FDR? Well he pulled the country out of depression. He had no alternative but to go to war. He couldn’t have been an isolationist.

JF: Do you remember listening to his talks on the radio?

GW: Ohhhh, I listened to them many many times. Ya know, I went to see his home in Hyde Park.

JF: Oh wow, that’s cool.

GW: Yeah, and there he was sitting at his window in his estate as a wax figure. Oh, I had the greatest admiration for him, I just read a book on the Roosevelt family, on his family, and it was quite interesting. I just read the book in the past year…now that’s St. Catherine’s of Sweden over there.

JF: So was that a Swedish church?

GW: Oh no that’s Catholic! St. Catherine was Catholic…

JF: Oh right I forgot about that. Were most of the churches Swedish in the village?

GW: Yeah most of the churches are.

JF: Did people speak a lot of Swedish?

GW: Oh yes, in fact, some boys, well men they’re not boys anymore, I play golf with—they told me they were offsprings of immigrants and they only spoke Swedish at home until they were probably entering kindergarten…my friend told me his parents spoke only Swedish to him at home…..One man I have great respect for is Fritz Johnnsen. Fritz came from Sweden and his folks settled in the village here, and they sent him to the school we just passed. He didn’t know a word of English when we went to school. Well, Anyway, he learned English and he went to High School and he was very good in math and physics and chemistry. And the high school math teacher arranged for him to have an interview at the Norton Company by the top three men: George Jebson, Mr. Alden, and a Mr. Higgins. He was interviewed, he got a scholarship, and he spent his whole working career working for Norton Company, and he died this past year. He was a member of Worcester Country Club, I’m a member of Worcester Country Club so I played golf with him many times, but because of his background I have tremendous respect for him.

JF: Yeah, I mean he came over here…

GW: Came over here and didn’t even know the language and he ended up with a scholarship to WPI.

JF: Wow, that’s quite an achievement.

GW: Well I think that’s an amazing achievement. And then he worked for Norton his whole life.

JF: Now did a lot of the other Swedish people in the village, Swedish-speaking people, did they have difficulty integrating themselves in the community, or…

GW: No, no. Way back, many of the Swedish people in the village lived there life in the village. You know, they had a dance hall there and they had dances every Saturday night and their churches had parties for them and as a result they lived a very nice community life here in the village. But their offsprings spread all over…

JF: Moved away from the village?

GW: Oh yes they’re all over. They’re out in Holden, Rutland, Paxton. Every so often I see in the obituary column a fellow I knew in the village and he lives in Holden or something.

JF: Now because Sweden was neutral during the war…

GW: Yes, yes it was.

JF: Did that cause any concern for the Swedish people as far as…

GW: No, no I don’t think so at all.

JF: Now do you remember Pearl Harbor?

GW: Oh I remember listening to the radio the night it was broadcast, about 6 o’clock.

JF: What do you remember from that day? What are some of the thoughts that went through your head?

GW: Well, unlike many others I didn’t pay much attention to the radio program, thinking it was a play or something, until the next morning, when I realized we had been attacked by Japan and we were in trouble. I think that happened with many people…so this is the end of the village as we know it…now, we’ll go back and I’ll try to pick up what I’ve forgot to tell you about…

JF: That sounds good. Now were you drafted into the Army or did you sign up?

GW: No I was drafted August 18, 1922.

JF: What did you think when you were drafted? Were you ready to go, or a little apprehensive?

GW: Oh I had made preparation. I had found my application with the intelligence and they investigated me up and down, ya know. And they directed that I take my basic training, they directed the army that I take my basic training at Ft. Devens, Massachusetts. And then I went from there to Boston for intelligence school, and then after about a year I went to their advance school in Chicago.

JF: So this was all intelligence work?

GW: Oh yes.

JF: What was some of your intelligence work about? What was some of the stuff you did?

GW: Well, we were not able to talk about it. We took a second oath that said we would never reveal anything.

JF: Wow, pretty secretive stuff.

GW: Yes, it was. So I’ve never broken that vow, ya know. This guy in back of me’s in one big hurry…ya know it’s easier to let them go than to have them fighting you….

JF: So what was your sense of the enemy? The Japanese, the Germans? Did you have any idea of why they were doing this to us, of why we were fighting or what we were fighting for?

GW: Well I knew that Hitler wanted to conquer the world. And then Japan all of the sudden felt like they were capable of being a world power, and um, you think you’re a world power, you don’t attack the little guy, you attack the other power. You don’t gain anything by attacking the little guy right?

JF: Right.

GW: You gain something by attacking the power, and we were the industrial power, the financial power, and they were going to destroy us. But, we had other ideas.

JF: Yes we did. We fought hard. Did you have any friends that were overseas?

GW: Oh yes, many. Fellas that I grew up with, fellas I played ball with.

JF: What did your wife do during the war?

GW: Weren’t married yet. I wasn’t married during the war. So I didn’t have any problem in that area (laughter).

JF: (laughter). Did you come back to the village during the war at all? Or were you pretty much in Springfield the whole time?

GW: No I use to come back occasionally. I’d visit the village here.

JF: Was it different?

GW: No, it’s about the same as it is right now. There isn’t that much progression, ya know. It’s about the same, ya know. Ya know many of these people speeding in back of us, they’re coming from work, they wanna go home, and you and I are not coming from work…hahaha…..that’s why they’re speeding. See they get through, a lot of the mills get through at 3, so….see that church? That church was moved from in back where the library was. Now down here there was a coal company—see that house with the spiral on the top? That was Mr. Perry’s home. Mr. Perry owned the Perry Coal Co. They had big horses, and they came into the village. That was his home. And this here is what was the Northworks of the American Steel and Wire. This was built during WWII. It was moved from up Greendale way down to here.

JF: Now when you see movies today about WWII, how do you think the war is portrayed today?

GW: Well the war today will never be fought the same way our war was fought. I mean now they’ve got rockets and….

JF: But when you see movies today about WWII, do you think….

GW: I enjoy them…

JF: …they portray it any differently? Or is it accurate?

GW: Accurate. Oh yeah. I enjoy it, very much. In fact, yesterday I turn on the TV and there was a WWII episode on there. I had things to do so I couldn’t watch it but, it was WWII all right.

JF: At least they got it right.

GW: Yeah they did. Yeah we’re never gonna see another war fought the way WWII was fought. They’re not gonna dig foxholes the next time. And ya know, we have airplanes that shoot rockets, stuff like that…which we didn’t have in WWII. Ya know? We didn’t have planes that shot rockets. We probably did at the end of the war, but our war was won by massive bombings, and of course the infantry. Now today, Hussein, what’s his name there Hussein…they’ll use all sorts of rockets against him. Now I wanna get over to Vernon St….

JF: I don’t think I’ve evern been up this way.

GW: Now this is Vernon St.

JF: Where did you live?

GW: I’ll show you, I lived on Fifth Ave. Now people here have taken care of their homes and all, ya know? They’ve kept them up well. This is Fifth Ave. And I grew up in that house right there. Yup, grew up there. My folks owned it. We lived on the first floor, and they rented the second and third floors. Look at all these three deckers. All these people raised nice families and educated them.

JF: Yeah we live at a three decker down on Southbridge St. Not kept up quite as nice.

GW: Yeah I remember boys playing baseball here a lot—and also, I remember that before all these houses were built, homeplate was right here. See all these houses are maintained quite nicely aren’t they?

JF: Oh yeah. Do you remember rationing things during the war?

GW: Oh yes, gasoline. My folks had a car and we had to get a sticker, oh yeah. Rationing for food for meat, butter—they had coupons and everything…so I used to audit over here in this building, but then I gave that up because I was gonna become the richest man in the cemetary (laughter).

JF: (Laughter).

End.